Equity and Literacy Learning: Addressing Bias in Literacy Assessments for Multilingual Learners

In today's episode, Dr, Tami talk with Dr. JaNiece Elzy- Palmer, an assistant professor at Texas Woman's University in Denton, Texas.  Listen in as Dr. Palmer delves into her fascinating research, unraveling the intricacies of language, literacy, and the impact on students. Drs. Tami & JaNiece highlight the importance of culturally and linguistically  responsive teaching. 

💡Civil Rights Issues in Language Policies

• The discussion revolves around the civil rights issues in language policies, particularly those impacting multilingual learners. Dr Tami & Dr. Palmer discuss the discrepancies, including the disproportionate identification of multilingual students in special education.

💡Language Practices and Literacy

• This part of the  episode explores the intersection of language practices and literacy, emphasizing the complexity of these interactions. The conversation encourages educators to rethink traditional assessment practices and consider the holistic nature of language.

💡Impact of Linguistic Diversity on Literacy Assessments

• Dr. Palmer challenges conventional literacy assessment frameworks, emphasizing the need for a nuanced understanding of linguistic diversity. The conversation explores how language intersects with literacy acquisition, especially in the context of multicultural classrooms.

💡Cultural and Linguistic Responsiveness

• The importance of culturally and linguistically responsive teaching emerges as a central theme  emphasizing the impact of such approaches on student outcomes.

Coaching Discovery Call

 Enjoying the show?  
Become a subscriber: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2226037/support 

Would you like to be on the show or know someone who Dr. Tami should talk with?  Let us know!

Follow us on Instagram to find more resources connected to today's episode. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

 

 Welcome to another episode of the Dragonfly Rising podcast with me, Dr. Tammy Dean, your host. And I am so excited for our guests today. We have Dr. Janice Elzey Palmer with us today . 

 Dr. Elsie Palmer is an assistant professor at Texas Woman's University in Denton, Texas. Texas, , so she is joining us to share some of, , her amazing research, , that she's been doing and how that impacts and affects students. 



, as you know, , we always love our guests to share a little bit about their equity journey and what that's looked like for you. That's  gotten you to the space you are in today. So, , tell me a little bit about your equity journey. 

Yes. Well, you know, I think  I was thinking about this question. Um, as I've been listening to other episodes,, of this great and wonderful podcast.  And, , I was thinking it all starts back to when I was a classroom teacher. , I was a classroom teacher in a school district in Illinois that. The population was changing very rapidly.

, so it, this was around 2006  and, , it was Moving from a predominantly white, , maybe upper middle class socioeconomic status area to one that was becoming very much more so multicultural. , there were 22 languages spoken at the school when I was there, , by the students. And it was an elementary school, , K 5.

And so you can imagine, like, the shift. , That teachers had to make, but,  you know, as I'm thinking about it, there wasn't any professional development or anything from our administrators or from the district that, , really helped teachers to understand, as you can imagine, the demographics of the teachers represented much like they are right now, ,  , where I was , maybe one of two teachers of color and all the other teachers were, , elementary school, white women

and so a lot of them had been there for a long time. They , grown up in the community. Some of them had even gone to the school, you know, and so it  was, you know, as things are changing, you know, the teachers aren't quite keeping up with it and the district isn't either. And there were policies, I remember, , especially with multilingual learners.

 That I just thought to myself, , this is kind of  a civil rights issue, almost, you know,  being placed in, , dual language programs and then, taken out of the dual language programs and then put back in, monolingual programs and being exposed to , Up the assessment. Like language has nothing to do with literacy, you know, and so they were being 

crazy concept. 

interventions  and you know, even like on rt,  like, okay, well they're not showing progress there in special education.

And I remember,  later on, Maybe like I was in this district for 10 years, so I would say probably like year eight.  I was saying , I wonder just how many, , what's the percentage of multilingual students in special education are being qualified right now? 63%. 

Oh my

, the students that were in that district were multilingual placed in special education or on, on the pipeline for special education and interventions.

And they made up probably about 13 or 14 percent of the district population. And so there was a huge discrepancy, and that is what sparked me to actually go and get my doctoral degree.  I was like, I gotta do something about this!  Because,  I mean , how are, how is this equitable at all? , for these students, and our expectations just did not match.

 Actually, I remember like, when I was a classroom teacher, I had... Oh, I have so many students that spoke so many different languages and I didn't have the education, you know, my,  education preparation program did not have any linguistic classes did not talk about language as a factor for, you know, helping students to become literate.

And I remember, , One of the local universities had like a workshop for like L1 and L2 and I spent my own money. I was like, I'm paying this 

Yeah, 

you know, so I guess I've always been kind of that teacher. , that, that was, you know, like really. Internally driven to try to do right by the students, there was something, you know, in that experience that really didn't sit well with me.

And that was really the start of my journey. As you can imagine, when I started my PhD program and I started learning about language theories and other literacy theories, my mind was open to  much more that I could be doing to you.  To be culturally and linguistically responsive to the students that were that were in front of me.

And so, yeah, that that's been my journey ever since. 

wow, , you think about the disproportionality of identification with students. And I think that's a really good point, right? Because oftentimes when we hear about  over identification of students, people tend to think of like behavior and other types of disproportionality  that exists. But I think this is a really.

, a key point and, you know, you open your eyes are open. I think that's the thing about an equity journey, right? Once, once your eyes are open and you see  this one nugget,  you start to see how it connects to the other components around systems. Of inequity that exists  in schools. So I just think that's that's  so compelling.

Right. So  decide to go get your doctorate. Right. And I think that's super, um, that's amazing. Right. Because you now have the opportunity in what you do now to influence and support., practicing teachers and future teachers. Right. So to try to  influence in ways that you didn't necessarily have the opportunity to have in your own kind of journey.

So I think that's a really. Really powerful move. So I love that, you know, you went right into the culture and linguistically  responsive teaching. Imagine that, imagine that. , I know you've been doing a lot of work in thinking about how  we think about language and the ways of communication that students bring to the classroom and those implications  of those perceptions. 

on students and in their learning environment. So I would love, to just hear a little bit about your work and what you you've been kind of diving into,  with teachers out in the field and what they're doing. 

Absolutely. And so, yes, I have definitely been very focused on language and it's taken its, you know, turns here and there. Really,  the core  question,  that I seem to always come back to centers around our literacy assessments.  And, you know, the field of literacy research hasn't really dealt with linguistic diversity, , a lot.

So the field of  sociolinguistics has, but not literacy and so literacy has been kind of like in this ideologically neutral bubble, like, you know our assessments and our practices, it's,  like as long as we're teaching reading, , that's just Really where it centers. And so, especially literacy, I think, , has been in that method fetish of like, you know, we need to just find the right literacy method, you know, regardless of our student,, cultural context and social context.

And I think when we do that, it really, , leaves us blinded or it hides, you know, the other factors that are,  are really largely contributing factors to maybe other reasons why students may be scoring certain ways on assessments, you know, one of the things I know that's been getting a lot of attention lately, especially with emergent in the emergent bilingual community is how our set our literacy assessments are very geared, or even not geared to  The underpinnings are from a monolingual framework. 

Oh yeah.

using our monolingual framework to really understand literacy, but we are using that on students that are linguistically diverse. , that really, I started really being interested in that when, , I was listening to, , a student that was African American, , And so like African American English or black English.

And, , as he was reading, and again, this was a student that was six years old. So, you know, he was labeled a struggling reader. And  then also, you know, was in that acquisition phase, you

Mm-hmm.

he's six, he's at kindergarten. 

right.

And so, you know, when we think about like how long students have been talking and speaking in their community, you know, language development, , It is.  It's like, um, we understand that to be that of course students will, you know, speak the language that they speak at home when they come to school,  but we're having them read these texts and these, and then use them to then gauge, you know, whether they have a literacy issue, , or not. And we're taking the language piece out of it, but the assessment that the student was the teacher was giving the student was a running record. 

And so I thought in my research, it would be really good to examine that because in the field of literacy research, we often think of the running record as like the, , the assessment that it's really going to help us understand, you know, like what Readers are doing. But what I found is that if  we don't, , analyze the assessment, , with the eye for linguistic diversity.

We end up inadvertently replicating the same inequities as other assessments that have been really, um, labeled as standard, you know, like standardized assessments,

right, right.

like, right.  It's like not ethical. And so, but, but that can be also done with the running record, especially if there's no interrogation around it.

And what I found is that there's been very, very little, very little research around this. And so when I remember working with the student and the teacher,, that was analyzing the running record and we both said, you know, some of the things that the student was doing was very, , the teacher was an African American teacher.

I'm an African American woman. And so we both, all three of us speak black English  and we were all like, well, yeah, we understand why he said, , you know, left that S off the end. So it was like, , you know, instead of the fraud. He was saying, you know, the frogs, and instead of like the birds. So everything else was decoded and read fluently.

But like the, the plurals were left off. And maybe there might have been some other subject verb agree, you know, disagreements that are very typical. And so because we're familiar with it, we were like, Oh, yeah, well, we can understand why this student would do that. , and we kind of didn't think anything of it, except for she said, Well, if I counted up all these errors, Transcribed Then, technically, he failed total call, this call, , and, and, and there was really no guidance.

I started thinking like, hmm. Well, yeah, but like,  we don't, we're not just going to analyze by thinking about the accuracy score, but it's very clear in our consciousness assessment or developmental reading assessment, the guided reading assessment, you know, all of those assessments are very clear in the directions when they say, if the student does not have this accuracy score. 

Marker

Then you go down a level and so I started grappling with  is this really significant though, of a literacy? Is this a reading issue?  Or is this somehow a play of how language  intersects  with literacy? Especially at that acquisition phase when students are drawing on their, what they know about language and they're drawing on their language resources to this way. 

printed form. You know, this is a newly printed form. I'm trying to understand this and grapple with this.  I'm trying to negotiate the differences between my spoken language and what's here that my eyes are picking up. And so it makes sense that language would intersect with literacy acquisition in very complex ways.

Mm

the assessment  As the directions were written, didn't really allow for that complexity. And so that's really where my research is, , is headed. You know, I'm, I want to understand how teachers are interpreting these things, , and how we can then make our  assessment and not to start, you know, Analyzing of the assessments, but how that then impact our instructional practices,   because I found myself, you know, as, as, uh, as I was posting this, this teacher, I was like, well, do I tell her just ignore the direction?

You know,  I wasn't sure what to do. , and there was not a lot of guidance. And so I said, I think this is something that we really need to talk about.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

, I want to come back to something  You were talking about  like in you know interrogating the results, right?

And to me,  this makes me think of  the opportunity for  professionalism and knowledge and, but , how are we learning about this? Because I can see threads. Of this expectation from, you know, a student has an oral language that has certain systems and structures, right? And then that gets connected with how it flows when they're reading, not necessarily an error if they're not noticing the S, right?

But it's just a part of way of their, . Knowing and being an understanding,  but then you see that transferred right into  This instruction you're talking about not just the literacy assessment itself, but then how do we value?  Language  in the classroom kind of period right and like  the linguistic diversity that exists with language. 

Yes. And that, and that really, you know, what is the heart of what,  my work that I am, , really attempting to investigate,  is how teachers are right, not just analyzing the assessment, but , where, how do I take the results that I'm getting? What am I noticing about it?

What does that mean for me, for my instruction, for how I interact with the child? , am I going to, what I have found, if I can jump to that a little bit, 

Yeah!

, my pilot study that the teachers absolutely noticed it,  they were not,  Blind to the light. They were like, Oh, yeah, this definitely seems consistent with the way that the students speak, but that's where it ended.

They had no idea what to do after that. And so they kind of went business as usual. , they, they went, okay, I'm just going to do the standard procedures and the standard practices and You know, that's what I'm going to do because I really don't know what else to do. , no one's really has given me any guidance about this and yeah,  I can definitely see that this is something that, that is, , I don't want to say impacting the students accuracy score.

But , what do I do with it? 

Right, it's influencing it, right? And we know that that's an, it, an influence on it.  Wow.  So,  what, what really is at play,  that's it 

seems to be, , a disruption. Of systems that perpetuate inequities and how we understand,  , difference in our classroom. 

Yes. A complete, I would say, disruption and a complete disassembly.  You know, I, I, some, and, you know, I kind of am really starting to think as the more teachers that I talk to, it's like, , is there something about the way that we understand Black English and Black language, you know. As something that, , is not something that I want to hold on to that's different from like a child named language as their first language like Spanish or, or,, Chinese or Vietnamese.

, and that's where I really have tapped into  translanguaging, as a, as a theoretical framework that offers us a lens.  Um, to help us understand why the disruption and the complete dismantling is necessary.  Because what translanguage offers us, or translanguaging theory says is that, , this whole thing about like our, our borders and named languages, like these are all socially constructed.

Language is a fluid, living, breathing thing.  And so who says what's not? You know, there is no rules about what's appropriate language or not, we create those things and so we can totally say, you know what, this is appropriate, you know, this is, this is okay. And if we have a whole community of people that have been, you know, speaking this language in their home, then it's completely valid.

, you know, not even getting to the point of that, you know, it has grammatical structures and rules. Like, it's not like everything just goes,  like there are consistencies  and, and things like that. That's just a whole nother can of worms, but you know, teachers, especially if they aren't in the community speaking with,  the students.

And really getting to know, , the importance of the language and what it means for the student's identity. , they're really left, you know, not knowing, ,

hmm. 

 And so the,  the thought there is like, , this is what needs to happen in order for them to , pass the test. And so it doesn't matter if, the student. 

Identities are erased here. It doesn't matter if the  home language isn't sustained, you know, Dr. April Baker Bell says that, you know, in the multilingual community, it is often suggested that,  our practices in the classroom  need to sustain home languages, but that Black students aren't afforded that.

You know, and so I, it's also this intersection that makes it really complex of like, you know, our societal views of language, you know, which languages are worthy of our assessment accommodations and our assessment,   dismantling and our assessment disruption, or which languages aren't, , necessary or necessarily seen as like, Oh, that's, , , that's, you know, this language needs to be sustained and so I'm going to really put that effort into, , interrogating and analyzing my instruction and my assessments and,  making sure that my comments about it, , how I'm really digging in on, , that, that's not sending the wrong message to the student, you know, is,  Is that something, is this language worthy of that, you know, is  another layer, I think to the research and investigation that I'm just starting to really grapple with.

Yeah.  Well, and I feel like that's going to touch a nerve a little bit, right, because  a couple pieces of this, right? One, that  all  of these languages are, you know, there's value here,  but having to see Right, because I just,  in my mind, I see the, the, the parallel between the construct, the social construct of race itself, and that hierarchy, and then the social construct of which language. 

Is, is valued, right? And for me, this all comes back to the,  the power who,  who has the power in the systems.   And I know people like to think that schools are  these very neutral spaces. . But they aren't, which I know you know this, but they aren't because, schools exist within the larger social system that's already in place and it just perpetuates these inequities.

And systems and structures that have been in place, to continue  to marginalize certain groups of people. But I, you know,  know, and I think it's really powerful, right? Like, your bilingualism,  real bilingualism, right? I feel like I, , this one, this one's not. This one.  And I'm just going to say this because I've heard this in my own, you know, work like that's lazy.

That's, you know, , very negative derogative terms associated with, Other,  , languages. 

. 

Marker

You know, and I often say,  when someone has asked me like, what's your goal, ,  what, what would you like teachers to, , if they pick up,  your piece of research, what would you like them to do? And  something you said really touched on that I said, I would like them to just pause and think,  is this bothering my ear to hear this, and why, why is that bothering my ear 

Mm.  Yes. The pause and

to pause.  Yeah, 

You know, that,

reflect. 

yeah. Like, to me that connects to, , an awareness of self and  being able to understand or think about  how your own bias influences  Your interaction  or understanding or maybe lack thereof of another  in their experience. 

Yes, yes, exactly. And, and I think  I want to put this out there too because I think it happens inadvertently, you know, especially, like I said, when we're thinking about  literacy research and And the field of literacy research, it really, the assessments and our practices, you know, we're just now getting to the point where we are really calling out, you know, in this field, like some of the inequitable practices that have been long standing, you know, but just  inadvertently perpetuating the same system, that we see of inequality and marginalization in society. 

And, and so, I do, I really do think that,  I think it's, it's time for the field to really address this.

 

Yeah. Yeah.  I have a wondering and I don't know if you've, you've thought about this or address this all at all in, in your research or in your conversations with teachers. But you, you mentioned this, , the compliance around, the way in which the assessment is, is given and that it really requires a.

, more of a complex view of it, but I also see this need budding up with some current climate. We have an education right now where I feel like the pendulum is swinging to this very compliance based experience for educators where they aren't.  Provided the professional latitude  to best meet the needs of the students in front of them.

So I'm, I'm curious  if you've seen that,  in, in your conversations with teachers or what your thoughts are about that as it kind of connects with your work. 

Yes, that's, ooh, that's good. I haven't thought about it in that way, but I can definitely see your connection. Um,   one of the, I did ask I remembered in an interview with one teacher in the research study.  And, , I asked him, just point blank, do you feel like you have the authority to, you know, say, you know, I'm going to analyze it in this way.

I know that the book says to do this, but I'm going to make a different choice. And he said,  kind of, but my thing is like, I know that When this kid goes to a different classroom or they're in other spaces they're not going to be afforded that. So it's almost like he felt like it was his duty, you know, almost like to prepare kids for the real world, you know, that we hear that like, well, I know they're going to be judged or I know that they're going to be held to that heart and standard.

So, it's my job to kind of do that as well.  And so there was kind of this whole idea that. , it isn't my job to stop the inequity or is it my job to call into question period, but it's my job to kind of like continue on and just help the kids to assimilate., and help the student to then  move their,  language practices. 

Not necessarily,  it's not up to the assessment to assimilate to the needs of the students. And so I think that view  for sure is there. I do think the climate isn't helping.  The  climate doesn't help that because it definitely is also like a fear, you know, of to. 

 Do the wrong thing.

I don't want to go against the grain. I

want to 

want to get fired.

don't,  yeah, absolutely. And, you know, in my, in my courses, I see that a lot more, you know, actually just yesterday,  I teach a comprehension class and the teacher was like, oh yeah, I mean, like, this is good in theory, but you know, I know that my.

Assessment director is going to say to me, , why are these, why are this number of students scoring, you know, this way, why are,  why are, why do you have this number of students getting this question wrong, you know, and that kind of thing without interrogating like the assessment.

So, you know, she was also saying like, Hey, I get what you're saying, but,  , at the end of the day, , it's going to be.  , my job, , they're going to be coming and looking at me and saying, I'm not preparing students to do well. , and so I think it's very.  And it's very hard. I don't, there wasn't a teacher that  when we talked and analyzed and we talked about the research, we talked about the assessment,  there wasn't a single teacher I've talked to that, that, that was like, Oh, no, , I'm not gonna,  I'm not gonna do that , they wanted to do well. 

It's hard, I want to make sure that that I'm also saying, I don't think that teachers were actively intentionally, , saying , I'm going to do wrong by this kid or I, I'm seeing what you're saying, but you know, I'm going to do this anyway, it was definitely a very complex  um, 

Yeah.

know they wanted to do, right.

But, but yeah, as you're saying, this climate of , you know,  it's a very assessment driven, um,  culture and education right now and, and, and a particular version of assessment I should, you know, like assessment to like the very empirical empiricism, not , , self assessment, assessment for learning.

It's

Authentic assessment, , and I, and I, I think that's a really good point, right? , that there's a tension.  And I, and I feel that tension, , with teachers too in the field, right? There's a tension between  how do I do what I know is best for a student and still meet  this compliance expectation for me, like this push and pull with where do I maybe have  more authority? 

Right to push back on some of these systems, but I wonder if we start thinking about it differently  And this just this just came to my mind, right? So we talked a lot about allyship  and if you're the person with power in an equity situation right, how do you step into your power and authority to be an ally and  To the person that doesn't have that power in that situation.

And if we think about this, we have an opportunity as educators to be allies  for the students. 

Absolutely.

you know, and,  and I think there's,  I'm not saying it's an easy, uh, decision and process to make, but I think if maybe,   as an educator, if you start thinking, maybe what's the one thing I can do to help me be a better ally?

To these students that I know aren't being served well with how we're looking at assessment data or how we're utilizing this assessment, right? And maybe you don't have an opportunity to change that actual assessment at this point, but maybe there's another way to bring in that allyship. Like, let's talk about an asset perspective of this student to Combine  with this number  that exists versus, , prioritizing a number in the way that we have, 

like what do I know about the student ,  it's not just like they're leaving off and , like you said, Oh, that s or,  they're saying look in instead of looking and things like that. , it's, so what do I know about this,  comes into play here, like what do I know about their home and they're like, like, these aren't like as we were talking about full circle at the beginning like these.  ways in which language intersects and interacts with literacy is so complex.  I think if we can't just ignore it as it has been without it having, marginalization of the students that Are already marginalized and oppressed in society like it's,  and so I like the idea of like what's that one thing I can do, I really do think that that in even if the one thing I can do is to take into consideration what I know about the student, outside school their home, their family, their community.

Right. their languages that they speak, you know, I mean, , these are all things that should be taken into consideration, you know, that score is not devoid of those things. Um, and I like,  And I like that. I think that's a good place to start.

yeah.  And,  I always think of the irony of saying, like, we're preparing the kids for the real world. The real world is actually culturally and linguistically diverse. 

Absolutely.

It's 

 not monolingual.  

to show, and I think about, , these literacy, , researchers,  , I would say the grandmother of, culturally responsive teaching, Gloria Ladson Billings, 



  I was listening to her talk very recently, and she was Full in her black English, like, she said, the girl said something about, the person that was,  introducing her said something about how the session was going to be, you know, wanted to coordinate it. And she said, you know, we're going to give us some time to percolate and things like that.

So Gloria Lassenzillian gets up there, after introduction, she said,  you know,  when I hear the word percolate,  , I'm not thinking what you're thinking. I'm thinking the song  and she, , she wasn't monitoring like we're still trained to do. Like, going to have to do this. Like, she's being honored with like a lifetime achievement award for her research. And she's up there speaking in her home language  of Black English. And I think like, I even think about myself in that matter.

I always say like, Oh, I want to do that. Like, I'm going to be like that, you know, in, in when I'm teaching,  I'm I'm going to throw it to the, to the wayside and I'm just going to speak like how I speak at home, honestly,   and, um, man, I've just been so conditioned, Dr. Tammy Dean. It's hard. 



My brain has been so conditioned already.

You know, to say like, well, in these spaces, this is what you do, you need to turn it off, you know, and I just love people that are, I mean, getting lifetime achievements award for their research and their scholarship, you know, that have really been, you know, huge.  Like, we stand on the shoulders of these people and she's up there speaking, just like.

How she speaks, she's not having to switch, as you talk about prepare for the real world,

Yeah.

you know, I'm talking about someone that,, is the epitome of demonstrating that, you know, uh, this language is   just a part of us in our community and it has nothing to do with intelligence or laziness. 

 And the ways that it has been perpetuated in society of, you know, not being valued, like being devalued, , in many ways. So, you know, I like to show that in my class when we talk about , linguistic diversity.  And just so that people can see, Hey, this article that you read by this person that you were like, Oh, yeah, I love this scholarship that's been, , widely, widely published so many books. 

This is her talking,.

Yeah, yeah.   It makes me think about  showing up as our true selves, right? And  I come back to like representation matters, right? Because here is Dr. Gloria Ladson Billings showing up as our true self, right? And if If, if, if we take, I'm going to call it taking back our power, right? Take back our power to show up as our true self.

How can that maybe shift, , the opportunity? For those, coming behind us to have more open space to sit, sit there in, in their authentic self. 

Yes, and I think, and when I have filmed  that video, we're talking about, you know, this multilingualism  being  inclusive of all languages, not just our.  Uh, nation, state, name, and languages that have been constructed.  Students that speak Spanish have said, like, that empowered them, you know, to, you know, be more, you know, empowering them to, like, own their accent.

Empowering them to, like, not have to feel like I have to speak a certain type of English, you know, when I am in class.  , and so I think about how when we show up as our true selves, as you, as you said, like, it's not just for the students that are speaking Black English, you know, it's for all of our students that have been, , marginalized because of their, their language and the language  The languages and the ways that they language,  I should say, , in, in spaces.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.  Absolutely.   I think that's where the power is, right? Like sometimes we think  we don't have the power to influence change, right? But if we think about how change has happened over time, it always starts with like  a person.

One person doing what they can do and then that multiplies by these other people, right? So even if it feels like you don't have the power for change you do you because you have control right over your own  Circle of influence right and that that spreads to other people that are connected to that circle of influence That's how I like to think about it.

I don't know. I don't know if you think about it the same way 

Yes,  I, yes, absolutely. And I think about like that. Yeah, those teachers that are like, wow, I didn't think about it that way. And, you know, that has really empowered me now they go out, like you said, yeah, and that circle and now they're empowering someone else by showing up as their authentic selves. , and that's exactly how it paid. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  Awesome. Awesome. , so I think this is a really great spot. Like, I think we've already been kind of sharing, sharing some tips, but I, I really want to think about,  your, your research in particular and. Thinking about, you know, a tip to share for educators, like what, what would be something you'd want and share with them about how they can use their voice, how they can think about, , being, , culturally and linguistically responsive in their, educational settings,

even leaders, right?  How do they set up an environment to support their teachers with being  culturally and linguistically responsive? , I would love to hear kind of your thoughts on that. 

Yeah. , my, my biggest thing that I have for, teachers, especially when they're thinking about assessment, is to think about the assessment in a very holistic way.  There's lots of research out there with, again, emergent bilingual students, but also how that applies to  all students that are multilingual in the ways in which their,  language practices are going to intersect with their, their literacy practices and, to not only, I will say, you know, I talked about the pause, but not only the pause, but really, um, 

Coming back to that question of, who is bearing the responsibility for change here, you know, so  If I am expecting my students that are learning about print and learning about language to really embrace this idea of, of reading and that love of reading and how it can be representative of their language and language practices,  then the burden of change isn't on them.  But if we don't interrogate, you know, if we just take it for, you know, face value, if we don't start interrogating the assessment, is this assessment really showing what I know that my students can do? Is this a reading issue? Or is this assessment not designed in a way to allow for the complexity of language and literacy?  And if it's not, then the burden is on us to do something about it, not on the student to then accommodate in pain.  And so I think just asking yourself that question like as, as I'm analyzing, as, as I, as I'm Interpreting as I'm thinking about my instruction as a whole, like where who is carrying the burden of pain. 

Oh,  that's a great question. Because  do we really want to do we should we be putting that on the back of six year old children?  You

exactly.  No, I don't think so. 

, I mean, , and I just think that's a really powerful way to think about it. Really powerful way.  Hmm.  I'm just all in my thoughts right now about that, right, because I think that can apply to not only just literacy spaces, right, and like literacy assessment, but I think that can transfer in other areas.

in educational environments.  So, , I  think that's a really powerful question. That's a really powerful question.  Thank you for sharing that tip.  What's,  what's kind of next for you? I know you said you're,  in the midst of this research, , where, where is it going? 

Well, I would, you know, really love to expand to at some point, almost like redesign  an assessment that  could Allow for us to hear students read orally, you know, be able to capture  the power of observation as students reading just like a running record. That's what it was, you know, designed to do to really, you know, capture our observations in one space.

 but also open it up. You know, what are ways that we can be thinking about, the design of the actual form?  There sometimes I think like, hmm, is the design of the form, almost like how it's even designed, , perpetuating, some thoughts that are, might be already there in society, you know, about language.

Like, this is wrong, this is right. You know, this is an error.  There's, you know, that very, uh,  the dichotomy, which,  it's just not, literacy is so complex, so much more complex than that, and so, you know, it's the design of the form, you know, somehow, you know, I don't know, helping us to,  live in an ideology that's kind of, if it's already there, and so I would love a form that would, I always say, like, if you can bring, if you bring your critical knowledge, culturally responsive self to a running record, then yeah,  you're definitely going to, to bring that to your analysis, but if you don't.

, then it's just not there. So I would love to to reimagine what that can look like, where there is a form or a way  that pushes teachers to think in these ways, even if it's not, you know, inherent in you already. , to start pushing teachers to think like, Hmm, I never thought about it that way.

Or maybe is that what I'm seeing? , and so something that just allows for the complexity. And so I would love, so I'm, I'm working with teachers right now in a school district, in Missouri, actually, and I would love to open it up.  I'm hoping to apply for a grant that will allow me to open it up to other school districts and what I'm hoping is that we network together, almost like a,  design based research where we can kind of try things out as educators,  working with our students and see what works, you know, what, what's really working for us to move the, To move the needle here on this issue.

yeah, yeah. Oh, I think that's great. I love the connection and collaboration, right, with  the educators that are, that are out there and are seeing and working with students. And I just think, I just think that's going to become a really powerful tool to help shift the, Way we think about,  analyzing students, very complex literacy interactions, because, you know, learning to read itself is a very complex process.

 And sometimes I think  we tend to try to boil things down into too much simplicity for speed. , and then we lose this, this nuance. So I think that's a really powerful thing to be looking at. 

I hope so. All the teachers I've talked to are really excited about it. And,  kind of what I was talking about before in that, um,,  it's not like these teachers were intentionally trying, , and so I think they're really excited because it's like, oh, I can see how that inadvertently perpetuates the same inequalities that I know they would not want to, and so it really is about that being more aware.

As we talked about, , and then also very, intentional about  bringing a critical eye to, to all the things, all of their practices,  not just their literacy. Practices.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. I think that's essential for us to make change that, criticality is, is going to be an essential component of that. Well,  Dr. Janice Elsie Palmer, I want to thank you for joining me today on the podcast. It has been such a pleasure as always, to talk with you.

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Um, Yeah, I'm excited about this podcast. I think it's going to be so helpful, you know, for so many, so many of us that are, are really trying to make the changes and do the work to transform education into a system that works for, , all students, not just some.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Don't forget everyone, , to, like, rate, subscribe, share with your friends. Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Dragonfly Rising Podcast.