DEI in Education: Strategies and Stories

Dr. Tami Dean welcomes Dr. Sara Piotrowski to discuss the integration of equity and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) principles into educational systems. They delve into the evolution of educational practices, the importance of historical context in teaching, and strategies for effective and inclusive instruction.

Join Dr. Tami & Dr. Sara as they discuss: 

• Educational Journey and Growth in DEI
• Challenges in Implementing Equity
• Empowering Educators

Books Mentioned in this Episode:
This Book is Anti-Racist
Men Explain Things to Me
The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle
Fit Nation

Coaching Discovery Call

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Transcript

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Tami 0:32

Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of the equity hour, a dragonfly rising podcast. I am so excited. It is your host, Dr. Tami Dean. I have joining me today, Dr. Sara Petrowski. She is the coordinator of. Student teaching for history and social sciences education. I got that all in one breath for Illinois State University in Normal, Illinois. Welcome, Sara. All

Sara 1:01

Thank you for having me. And you got the name and the title and it didn't take up half my episode. So there you go.

Tami 1:08

the things, all the things. So so excited to have, Sara here joining us today. We're going to, we're going to talk about, of course, all things equity. And Sara, you've probably heard a few episodes and just say yes. Yes, you have. Yes. But I always love to start with thinking about what is your, and has been, your journey with DEI and equity work, because I really think it's important for people to realize this isn't like a one stop, I've learned all the things and then I'm done. It really is a journey. So I would love for you to share a little bit about your journey with equity.

Sara 1:46

you know, it's interesting since, since you contacted me about coming on at first, I was like, I don't have a journey. You shouldn't talk to me about this. I'm not qualified. And then I started thinking about, no, I've been, I've been on a really long journey. And I think that part of my journey, it wasn't called this, right?

Tami 2:00

Mm hmm.

Sara 2:01

Wasn't about equity. I think of things that I've done, you A couple of years ago, actually, unfortunately, I had to do it during the pandemic, but we used to have an urban pipeline,

Tami 2:12

Mm.

Sara 2:13

with, it was the national center for urban education through ISU doesn't exist anymore, which is very sad,

Tami 2:20

Oh, that is sad.

Sara 2:21

Yeah, I think the grant money ran out. But, you know, I got to, like, do a course rewrite. And so, I didn't get to do, like, the homestay, right? but I did a whole week on Zoom, and I got to meet school partners and all this stuff. And I really got to, like, I've done that, and I've done some restorative justice training. So, like, I've done some official things, right? but I think a lot of it has been watching our educate, our community. Yeah. Our profession shift, as somebody who used to teach high school history, social studies and who now has actually, I've actually spent more of my career preparing future teachers, which is crazy to think that that's what I thought was going to be like a brief moment in time until my kids got over is now like the thing that I do and so I've been doing it, whether it's reading, whether it's advocating for students, whether it's Whether you know being serving on different committees. So I've been, I've been doing it. And then when you asked me to talk about it, I realized that, wow, I do live in this space. I think back to, and this is horrible. Did you ever like have to write like a philosophy of teaching when you first started out?

Tami 3:27

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And even when I applied for professor jobs, I had to share my philosophy of teaching. Yes.

Sara 3:36

so I recently stumbled upon what I wrote back in 2003, and it, it makes my skin crawl. One of the things I said, because I had changed my major for broadcast journalism to education. And I'd like called, and like my parents, specifically my dad had said something about wanting to be a teacher and like I ended this philosophy statement with the phrase, Daddy knows best. I like I can feel myself getting hot and like good. Good. No, I mean, I love my dad, which is also a space like a stop on my equity journey. Neither of my parents went to college some 1st gen. My parents are actually high school sweethearts and but they were like, fierce advocates of public education. When the neighborhood school, I grew up in the area when the neighborhood school closed, my parents were in their meetings and doing things and it closed, unfortunately. So then, they filled out an application and I was able to go to a magnet school. And so I was still part of the joint public schools, but now in later in life, actually in teaching history, I learned, like, I am a product of desegregation, you know, like, I am a product of integration, right? I was bused east side of Joliet. I filled out, you know, it was. You know, so just thinking about, some of the pieces, like my parents really wanted me to have a good education. Coincidentally, they also only paid for A's and B's. Nothing like getting that, that, that sea and weather like writing a number down and negotiating with my mom, like across the table, like this is what I can give you.

Tami 5:18

See it whether that was a course, it was a class whether

Sara 5:22

it was part of the geography endorsement. Yeah. You know, so like, there are things that I've been doing. things that I've learned about myself. Oh, so in that same statement, besides the fact that it was, I just really want to chalk it up to, I was like, trying to finish this quickly. I also said that, like, my philosophy was like, I will meet students in the middle. Like, I will, like, if you will do things, I will meet you in the middle. I can't do that anymore. I can't, like, that is the, you know, the famous little, like like, the image of, like, equity versus equality.

Tami 5:55

like with the the boxes and then the remover of the fence and

Sara 6:00

Yes. And I use that in a lot of my classes because we'll get some people like, ah, I was going to be an equity thing. And I was like, but, but it is an equity issue and it's an access issue and it's a privilege issue. And so I think back then, before I had spent a significant amount of time in a classroom, I was in the middle. Like, if you do things, if you show up, I'll do what I can. Well. There are some students that they're like, they're already starting in the middle. So they have very little do they need very little for me. And then there's students that are over here that just getting them to the middle isn't even going to be enough. So I think that like, I've learned, I think a lot of my equity issue is just, has been experienced.

Tami 6:40

hmm.

Sara 6:40

I think another part of, my equity journey, has also been becoming a mother. Nothing, nothing stops you in your track, like your kid wanting to like know why something isn't fair. You know what I mean? And, and so I think that, so in the summer of 2020, I put some books aside because I am notoriously, as somebody who has multiple degrees in history, can't remember like names and dates. So I put the, brought the books

Tami 7:14

that's okay. You know, what are the are the dates and names the most important part like You know what I will say this so I used to not like history

Sara 7:24

that's fair. I mean, there's a lot of you. Mm hmm.

Tami 7:27

boring, so boring, right? Like, memorize this stuff. We're going to talk about the same little chunk of history like eight times, you know. But then I met people who love history. And we're actually talking about the story of Of history and the Oh, it made little hearts. That was so cool. Okay. I didn't know I didn't know it did that. Okay, y'all like there were little hearts on the screen. That was so cool. Okay, I'm going to show that clip. I'm going to have to put that clip out on Instagram because that was super cool. But no, I really met people that love history and then really actually told the story of history because that's the power her. Of history is the narrative and the story of the people because I'm super big on narrative and story is storytelling because that is how I believe we connected how we have historically throughout history connected as humans. And that is how we should be able to continue to connect with humans is also why I love a podcast, right? Because that's what a podcast is. It is a story, right? We're having a conversation and we're telling, telling a story. So. No judgment there, but that was full disclosure. I used to not like history. Now I think it's super cool. Cause I hang out with the cool people that are, you know,

Sara 8:43

We, we make it happen. Am I allowed to ask you questions?

Tami 8:46

Oh, you could ask me a question if you want.

Sara 8:48

I don't know the, I don't know the rules. This is my first time on a podcast. So, I'm curious, like, what story made you like history? Is it because the story, up until that point, you weren't representative? Were they like dead white men?

Tami 9:02

Oh, you know, that is

Sara 9:05

Was that real? Was that really point, was that really pointed? Because I, I've asked you a question, but then I can tell you why I got into history, but I want to hear your answer.

Tami 9:13

You know, That's interesting, only because I, ironically enough, have not thought about that perspective around my study of history. It is probably very true because I have talked in the past about just, growing up a multi racial, multi ethnic person, you know, going to high school in the early 90s in a school that was predominantly white, right? Like, there was a lot of How do you identify yourself? Like being a multiracial person didn't exist in 1990, right? So, yes, that perspective was probably missing, but I probably wouldn't have recognized it then. What I think captured me was the passion of people or the person that was starting to tell me about These historical events and I was like that is super intriguing like there was interesting information that connected back to the actual people living in the time around the history so that's kind of what. You know, brought me in to it.

Sara 10:24

you think of what that person, place, thing, event, or idea in history was that like hooked you, if you ever think of it, I'm just curious, because mine was the OG American Girl Dolls.

Tami 10:39

Oh,

Sara 10:40

so I'm just going to keep outing myself as your dorkiest, as your dorkiest guest. In fifth grade,

Tami 10:47

we're all dorky. That's why we're here. I mean, just saying.

Sara 10:52

in fifth grade. With my paper route money

Tami 10:57

had a paper route.

Sara 10:58

yes, I came home from school and I had to roll the papers and, I put the bag on my scooter and I went and, and then also can we talk about the fact that my parents, I mean, this entire generation, right, like they would send me out with this little like clipboard thing to go collect money from people and they either had to write me a check or give me, exact change. I was just out going to get their paper money, like they gave, they gave me the money

Tami 11:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Sara 11:39

and so that job, that job doesn't even exist because A, that means you would have to buy papers and B I think, I think the paper routes now are to people that go early in the morning and they drive around because they can't actually, there's not enough papers to be passed in a subdivision like if they drive around, I believe it's how it's, right.

Tami 11:57

I don't know. My paper route was in my neighborhood and the adjoining neighborhood. And then a friend of mine had the neighborhood. Had the route on the neighborhood across the way from us. So sometimes we would sub for each other. But yeah, I had to deliver the papers early, early in the morning. So this is shout out to my dad because he did, you know, we, we propped up the hatchback with a broomstick. Yeah. And then I sat out the back inhaling all the exhaust fumes, you know, but like I delivered all the papers, but he would get up and he would, you know, drive me around. If I sometimes I would go on my bike and I had the big bag, you know, and then I would. You know, throw them out. Very cliche. But yeah,

Sara 12:36

No, I did it on my scooter, and I think I had to deliver them by, like, five or five thirty. To think that, like, that people had to wait until Sara got home from school, have a quick snack, rolled papers, rubber band them, put them in my bag, and come out, like, that's how people had to wait to get their news in the nineties.

Tami 12:55

it boggles. It totally boggles. Like my own children's mind. They're like, well, how did you know information? I said, well, we had to wait till the next day or we watched the news at 10 o'clock. Some

Sara 13:06

it didn't show up on my For You page, and let's talk about how you shouldn't just get your news from TikTok. But that's one other,

Tami 13:14

That's a whole nother episode. That's a whole nother episode. Okay. So you had a paper route.

Sara 13:17

got a paper out, saved my money, at that point I had, I had the books, both from the library and I had some, and so I, I, I had Kirsten, was my first American Girl doll. So fifth grade, arguably a smidge, a smidge too old to be playing with dolls, but you know, that's, that is, that's how I, like, really got into history, You know, learning about the plains, and there was Molly, and Samantha, and Felicity, I think were the four of the first four. And nothing struck me like when my daughter, who I believe we got her first American Girl doll catalog before she could sit up. So like, it's like they, they have a, they have some sort of like Spidey sense, like, oh, we should send a

Tami 14:03

Like we need the mailing list of the births that happened at the hospital and then we're going to send you our catalog.

Sara 14:08

And we still get them, by the way, even though she doesn't, my daughter is now 14, but we got one last week and American Girl has partnered with the Disney Princess. I was like, oh, that would have, but that, so to get back, that is how I, Learned about history. I learned about girls, my age, what they were doing, who they were with, their trials and tribulation. my daughter was into American Girl. Her first was Kit. We joke that she used to like play Great Depression. It was like she had a little typewriter and a little like scooters thing. Tell me your mom's a history professor without, right?

Tami 14:48

Oh my gosh. That's so crazy. But it's the story, right? You could relate to their story.

Sara 14:54

those were the stories. That's what I wanted to learn more about. And so I have no idea how we even got here. I have outed myself for talking about American girl and

Tami 15:05

We,

Sara 15:06

my

Tami 15:07

your equity journey, we were talking about history and the love of history and how you became like interested in history. So as a part of your journey of history.

Sara 15:19

Part of my journey. So, and I think back, like, to high school, my electives, they had a, I don't remember what the class was called, but essentially we read Malcolm X's biography autobiography,

Tami 15:33

Mm hmm.

Sara 15:34

yes, autobiography, and we read a rumor war, a Vietnam book. So, essentially it was like a civil rights cold war Vietnam class, only female in the class. And that happened. Quite a few times when I was in college as well like the only on the history class. One of the districts I taught in, I was the first female social studies teacher in 2005. So, like, I've been, you know, with the, with the whole idea that, like, you know, social studies teachers are there to coach, I've been in spaces, you know, where now to be clear, I've worked with a lot of great, great men and women. I've worked with a lot of great colleagues, but, you know, a lot of that sexism persists and a lot of it is that that stereotype. And,, I think every year that I've taught history, or I've taught people how to teach history. A lot of it is about whose stories can we can who can we include. Right, like, like, first, I think first. It was like black history as we just got out of black history month, right? Because we should talk about that in February. Right? And now now we're in women's history month. Right? So I think, you know, and if you think back to like, old textbooks, they just used to have like a little picture of

Tami 16:46

little side.

Sara 16:47

little little

Tami 16:48

little inset.

Sara 16:50

Yeah.

Tami 16:51

With like, one woman. Like, one. And it was always the same one.

Sara 16:57

Right. I'm trying now. I'm like, you know, like some Eleanor Roosevelt, not that she's not, you know, some like, just some like, very like like

Tami 17:04

It'll be like Pocahontas. be like, Betsy Ross.

Sara 17:08

Betsy. Right.

Tami 17:10

Anthony.

Sara 17:11

Rosa Parks. There you go.

Tami 17:13

Rose Parks.

Sara 17:14

right. Civil, civil rights. You know, she's black. She's a woman. I mean, she could be in both months.

Tami 17:19

Harriet Tubman.

Sara 17:21

February, March, February and March. You could learn about her. For a little about them for two out of the 12 months. That makes sense. So I think, and I think it's, did you say where I'm doing? Can I say the state that I live in? Have you already said where? Okay, so in Illinois, I don't know why I'm asking. There's so many rules. Am I allowed to ask questions? Can I say where I live? So, we have lots of mandates now in this state. We were the 5th state to require LGBTQ plus history, we have Asian American history, you know, so we are, I am proud to live in a state, that we are making sure that there are more voices heard, I went to a panel last week, about the movie, killers of the flower moon.

Tami 18:02

Yes.

Sara 18:03

Oh, and so it was 1 of our faculty members and a couple, she had a couple indigenous folks there. 1 of them from the nation. And, you know, like we're, you know, we're talking about everything and they're like, yeah, but in Oklahoma, where this took place, they're not allowed to teach it. And it was only in the last three years that in Oklahoma, they can teach about the Tulsa race massacre, not the Tulsa race. Right. And so it's just like it's, you know, boggles me.

Tami 18:31

Oh, boggles my mind as well, right? There's, I'm not sure why there's this idea if we, Act like it didn't happen, then that means it didn't happen. And I, and I'm curious why this is so prevalent in America, right? Because I think of like the Holocaust and how in Germany and in those places, like they're not trying to hide from the history or make these persons heroic in some way. They are being true to the devastating loss. And genocide that happened in the Holocaust. I, I really don't know why

Sara 19:25

And

Tami 19:26

that can't happen here. Or hasn't.

Sara 19:29

And I, I mean, I think some, I think a lot of it is politics, right? I think it is who's in charge of our school boards, who's writing our curriculums, you know, what Texas wants, Texas gets, right? Like, for the textbooks, there's a really good New York Times article that compares Texas and California textbooks that we often have our students read that give just like full on excerpts,

Tami 19:51

hmm.

Sara 19:53

So the space that I live in right now preparing future teachers in Illinois, right? But they can go anywhere because you can say whatever you want about our state, but we have great reciprocity with our license. Our license is chef's kiss. Like you can go like 30 something states. You know, but this, they are young, impressionable, largely white, right, like, I think, what's the stat, like, 82 percent of teachers are white and female, and that's looking at, like, you know,

Tami 20:22

In middle class.

Sara 20:23

yes, and middle class and I, I know it is skewed a little bit different for high school because I know a lot of, like, When you do the full trunk, you know, with elementary, but either way, right now, our, our program was like flirting with 50 50 in terms of gender. And like, we now are have more male students again. I don't know, like, the exact, the exact like breakdown in our in our program. we make up about give on any given year between 70 to 80 percent of the history department. They are history ed. And so, they're terrified to teach anything controversial. Right, because they don't want to lose their jobs and mostly they want to get their student teaching. Right? So, because the whole goal pass, you know, get your certificate, get a letter of rec, it's a lot of times we have to say, like, read the room. Right? Like, know the district that you're in. We're not saying that this is where you have to teach for life, but this is, you know, you need to respect kind of the norms established. Now, that doesn't mean you can't push back by, like, having credible sources that you've cited, you know, and doing things like that. But, more and more often, and we try, we try so hard to teach them strategies that they can use in the classroom that We'll make sure that both sides of any argument are given equal weight,

Tami 21:49

hmm.

Sara 21:50

also talk about. When we don't debate closed issues, was slavery bad? We don't need to debate that. Right. Like, should gay marriage be legal? But you know, it's, you know, cause you read these stories or like people that like set up a, a mock slave.

Tami 22:11

Oh, you mean like that? Oh my gosh, what did I see? Where they were like, oh, they labeled one room white, entry whites only, blacks only. I was like, why?

Sara 22:25

So some of this stuff, it's like,

Tami 22:26

Like trauma, right? But that's like trauma. You're inducing trauma.

Sara 22:32

And so it's like, A, use your best judgment. It's kind of like when students are like, is this appropriate to wear for student teaching? If you had to ask me, the answer is no, right? The goal

Tami 22:47

would always be like, okay, check, lean over, dah, dah, dah, this, that they're like, what?

Sara 22:52

Right, but it was funny. One of the students made a comment. It's like, well, the new MLB pants aren't allowed because you know, they're like see through. I don't always get sports joke like jokes, but I did know that 1

Tami 23:02

gosh.

Sara 23:03

but, you know, it's and so we try to arm them with, like, teaching strategies. Like, we'll do a structured academic controversy. Right? Have you ever heard this? You know, where you present each side and each side has to speak and take notes and say it back and whether it's a fishbowl discussion, a QFT, a question formulation technique. Like, so we are, what we're trying to do is, especially in our methods classes, like, let's arm them with the strategies. That they can walk into a building, they're given the standard, or they're given the content or however that is aligned. And they can pull out sources that they can help students have a healthy dialogue. And really, as somebody who doesn't personally love, like, full on. confrontation. Like, I love a good discussion, but I don't like to come out swinging just for the sake of swinging. And that's what also has a lot of students shut down. We also talk about, like, do you have to have a debate? Because the debate insinuates that there's going to be a winner and a loser. And a lot of complex issues in history and in the social sciences that you can say yes, but, or no, but. And so the idea that, you know, and you're teaching them to, you know, You're, you're ultimately want your students, like our students who will teach future high school students, you know, that they can look for sources that they can listen for understanding. And, you know, and so it's, but they are, they're very, they're very nervous about, where they will get a job and what that will mean for what they get to teach because. We've prepared them to tell these, to look at all of these stories, you know, Indigenous, LGBTQ, you know, all of them. And a lot of our students are really looking forward to that, and they don't want to go to a place where they could lose their job if they do.

Tami 25:02

Yes. Well, you know, I live in Texas now,

Sara 25:05

I know I didn't mean, it was like not, I said it just because Texas really not the new country, but

Tami 25:10

they do. But I think that's important, right? Because there are so many educators in Texas. that still are looking to try to have these conversations. So I did, some teacher prep here in Texas for a while, right? And this would be the conversation, like you're talking about, well, how do I Do this. How do I bring this up? How do I have a similar thing? Know the why and the research that backs up why you're doing it and the process. Right. But I understand why they're afraid and scared. And I think that's also part of why conversations like this are so important is because our collective voice has power. And when we speak up about our profession, To the people that are trying to make decisions about what we do in our classroom, because just because you went to school doesn't mean you know how to best teach. You were just a student, okay, which is great, but we're professionals, right? So

Sara 26:18

we are, we've been trained to do this.

Tami 26:20

yes, we know how to do that. A primary source is a primary source or a book, right, that represents. Another viewpoint of life or experience or a culture is just as valid, right? It doesn't mean it's quote unquote woke.

Sara 26:43

I hate that, I hate that that word has become like weaponized, like, or that it's like, I guess, you know, that, you know, it's like a joke, like my children. They will call me a Karen or a boomer or what you're just like as a way to like be mean, mean teenagers. I joke that I have the mean teens. They really do actually love me very much, but it's the whole idea, even in my classes, they will be like, my students will be like, okay, so like, how do I like what I, what I believe in personifies being woke. Like, how do I not be labeled woke? That was like, I don't know because, I don't want the bad label, but I want to teach what comes with the bad label.

Tami 27:26

Yes. Yes.

Sara 27:29

a mean, like, naming all in for no reason.

Tami 27:33

yes,

Sara 27:34

no, there's a reason.

Tami 27:35

well there is a reason and I Think there is like trying to figure out like what do I how do I want to say this? I think there are some people You that are, are just following the pack because, right, as humans, we always were trying to categorize and group and like, we do all of these things to make sense of our world. And they're like, Oh, this person said this, and I respect this person or whatever for this certain person. And I'm just going to follow what they say. Say, and I'm going to keep repeating it, even though I have absolutely no idea what that actually means, right? So coming back to what you were talking about teaching critical thinking skills and looking at the factual information around what happened in history or a primary source document or evidence from history Removes that piece to me in my mind, right? Because this is the actual document from that time. And the words of the people in that moment.

Sara 28:45

Well, and like some of my favorite things, okay, I shouldn't say favorite, but like to show a contract, a teaching contract. And basically that, like, a woman couldn't marry that she couldn't be out past 8 PM that she had to be there in time to, like, start the fire and sweep the floor. And it's like. You know, or even like when I get to the 1950s and stuff, the like, the propaganda that was shared, like the date your family. And it's like a, you know, it's like a video about how to, you know, you know, the daughters that sell the dessert and, you know, just like how to be a good, I would eat. I would be a terrible 1950s housewife. Like, I would be

Tami 29:28

I would have been horrible. I would have been horrible. Horrible. Okay. I just had this thought, and I'm curious what you're thinking about it, right? Because you're bringing up, historically speaking around education, and education has historically been a female led thing. profession and patriarchy, right, has been this major system in force that influences everything we do. Even if you don't think it is, folks, it is because you are. Like grew up and live in this system. So I just am starting to think about right patriarchy and how the pushback around what happens in education because of the women are still not viewed. As intellectual beings that can handle these decisions and things like that, right? Because even if you look at, you know, a lot of leadership and education are male, right? So, I don't know. Thoughts on that. Very complicated.

Sara 30:43

So, it's a very, like, On our next episode, no, I'm just kidding. I think,

Tami 30:49

This happens on every episode, just so you know, like I could really branch off into like

Sara 30:53

oh, the ones I've listened to, I was like, oh, she could do, like, a whole separate podcast about this. Like, a whole series. So, okay, I, like I said, I got some books. I didn't even talk about this one. This was my, this book is anti racist.

Tami 31:05

Oh, I love that book. Love that book.

Sara 31:07

got that in summer 2020, actually did some of the activities with my children. That is when you know, let's see whose copy is this, this was Jake's, he had just learned cursive. This is when, again, you know, your mom is a teacher that she's making you do an anti racist workbook. But we had some really good discussions surrounding it. And one of them is that I, I am, and I am, and I bring that up because like I, I am a mother, but I'm also a very capable woman, right? Like the idea that something doesn't define me. Okay. But the other that I was just moving that out of the way. This. These two books Men Explain Things to Me and Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, are pretty much the equivalent of my Bibles these days. Like my important texts. Are you familiar with either of these?

Tami 31:57

I have actually not read either of these. I'm very excited though to hear about them. And I will, you know, in the show notes, I'll put some links there for y'all too.

Sara 32:04

So this, so this one actually, I was, I have, this was actually gifted to me by someone else who has been on your podcast.

Tami 32:14

With the cool

Sara 32:15

you do, you do hang out and and I have purchased, like, I just kind of like usually have some copies around so I can give them to people and things like that. Yeah. And so,

Tami 32:27

some free little libraries.

Sara 32:29

oh, I should do that. Normally, what I do is I give them to female students who come to talk to me because they feel that their male classmates are explaining things to them or talking over them, or they will say something and it isn't until the male student says it that it's recognized. I had one student, I had one student. Tell me they were working in groups and she was typing on her computer and her male classmate took her computer and started typing

Tami 33:09

Why

Sara 33:10

because he could type faster, better. I have no idea. So this book,

Tami 33:16

could he also land a plane? I'm sorry, I couldn't, I'm sorry, I couldn't help

Sara 33:22

absolutely. And this book is a series of short essays. You can be, you know, like, and you can learn, like, it's not like, you know, because we are as women incredibly burnt out. So it's not like extra reading, but I think this goes, this talks about, like, gender inequality, the patriarchy. It does, like, trigger warning, getting some violence against women, just a little heads up, like, because that is, you know, a very unfortunate part about being a woman. I think, like, it opens up, like, one of the first or second essays is about, like, the stats around surrounding rape that is incredibly, alarming.

Tami 33:54

Like, like if you're in a room with three women, at least one, like one in three women or something like that has been a victim of sexual assault? Mm

Sara 34:03

here in the United States, this is from 2013 it is reported a rape every 6. 2 minutes. One in five women will be raped in their lifetime. Yes, they are generally to be clear. I mean, that's a very relevant topic and not to diminish that that's generally not why students are coming to talk to me, though.

Tami 34:19

hmm.

Sara 34:20

Although mandated reporter, you know, I've heard great things are very sad things over the years, but it really, it's about, like, women's voices being heard women's voices being respected. The book opens up with essentially the, the author, Rebecca Solnit, I can't, I'm a bad being mansplained about her book that she wrote, either her book or her article. So somebody is like mansplaining to her not knowing she was the author. And I was like, That's a nice little antidote. We also, this is not like rooted in this book, but I often tell students, I think it originated in a Ted talk and they did it on Grey's Anatomy or vice versa, but like the super man pose that you're supposed to do, you know, and so I even have told, especially some of our students that are more introverted, more meek. I was like, listen, Before you go into that classroom, you go to the bathroom, right?

Tami 35:17

Mm hmm. Mm

Sara 35:18

Stand at a stall or do whatever, you know, and some of it is just, it's just confidence. Like you are, I will say like, you are smarter than most of them, right? Like you are, you, you have, have you done the reading, you've done the writing, you're articulate, like you can respond, your voice can be heard. And so, And so I think that that comes from a space of our schools, right? Our administrators, our department chairs, who even just like textbook companies curriculum, you know, that kind of do like the prepackaged stuff, you know, either who is writing it or who is ultimately making the decisions. I just think it's such a slap in the face when professionals, and in this instance, female professionals, are not. Don't get a seat at the table,

Tami 36:01

yeah, or they have a seat, but no one's listening to them at the table, right?

Sara 36:09

but they need a cowbell. I need more cowbell. You know, like,

Tami 36:13

But it, it's a slippery slope because then if you are, you know,

Sara 36:19

oh yeah. Mm-Hmm. No.

Tami 36:21

up with your full presence and like intellect and the things, you know, in the same way, I actually just wrote a LinkedIn post about this, right? You show up with your voice in the same way. As a male would women hear things like you are too loud. You are, you know, all these negative characteristics.

Sara 36:48

Mm-Hmm.

Tami 36:49

then if you happen to also be a woman of color, now you're aggressive. You are, you know, there's all these. Huge negative stereotypes. So women are silencing themselves out of probably stress. I'm sure that book talks about that, right? And protection, right? Do, is this a battle I want to fight right now? But I think the most important question would be, is this a battle we should even have to be fighting,

Sara 37:19

It was interesting I was listening to NPR this morning ahead of France voting to add abortion to their constitution, right, to make it and they even said, like, they were interviewing someone, they're like, are people actually even against this in your country? And they're like, no, but we saw what happened in America, you know, we want to make sure that this, you know, if other people are in power and, you know, and it's not about abortion. P. S. It's about access to healthcare. Sometimes I feel like it's bad branding, right? Like, who back in 2001, what are you, who, who was gonna leave a child behind? Right. I mean, that was my,

Tami 37:59

you know, that was not about children. That was about money.

Sara 38:03

that was about my, and so that is when, when I started teaching I graduated in December of 2003. So I started teaching during the NCLB era. And I just remember all the. All the faculty meetings, let me give you my list of the ones I want to leave behind, you know, like, but all the different things we made up for a AYP I wish I

Tami 38:24

Bubble kids, remember always talking about the bubble

Sara 38:27

Okay,

Tami 38:29

If, if I could go back in time, that would be like,

Sara 38:34

right? 100%.

Tami 38:37

up for where we are now to the, to the point where all we're doing is assessing, like, where's the actual teaching and instruction. Like it, it's gotten so out of control. Like, I can only hope that everyone keeps just saying all the things and the pendulum can swing back to where it needs to be, because it's just, and you're taking away so many things that are of value.

Sara 39:08

Well, and when, when I have friends who are not in ed, right. And they're always like, good, you know, like, oh, but I saw the test scores online. I'm like, please, if you are going to figure out where you're going to live based on online test scores, like don't, that is, first of all, if you're looking at any test scores since 2020, you basically should just leave America, right? Like and you know, like, I don't always need to get into the nuances of like, well, these tests are bias and, you know, it just. Everything that is, like, if that is the sole factor that you're going to look at the school that you want, the community you want to live in, test scores, that would actually be the last thing that I would want to know. If I, if I'm being the, I want to know the class size. That's what I want to know. Like, I've always been like a class size proponent because I've seen with my children what happens when they are, when you just add a few more in. That's always kind of been my, because I think that, well, and the stress it adds to teachers, and to parents, and to kiddos, and it just

Tami 40:13

yeah.

Sara 40:14

I taught high school and I had desks touching all four walls. It was like a, you know, they still wanted me to move around, right? Cause we gotta be, and moving around helps with like the management. And that was before, by the way, people were one to one. So it wasn't like they all had a laptop, but it was a little bit of a maze. To zip

Tami 40:35

Yeah, it's,

Sara 40:36

make my way up to my overhead projector.

Tami 40:39

Oh my gosh, overhead projector. There was one year I was in a portable

Sara 40:44

Oh, I'm so

Tami 40:45

with 31 6th graders. It

Sara 40:50

And then it's like, it's

Tami 40:52

was too much.

Sara 40:54

like unfair working conditions and learning conditions. That's, you know because even like when the, when the pandemic hit, you know, when teachers were like, everybody loved us in March of 2020, but then by August, when we were like, actually, we would like safe working conditions. Parents were like, no, take them back. And then we were like,

Tami 41:13

Right? Why are you complaining? You get summers off. I mean, that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother conversation about expectations and lack of boundaries that teachers are supposed to have. Burnout. Another plug for this book.

Sara 41:27

I know it. I'm not. See, this is written by two sisters. Maybe they're twins. I can't remember. This one, I did not know about. the bikini industrial complex. So if you want to just layer in like how women not only need to like be meek and quiet there's an entire industry that is also like a multi million dollar industry trying to make us feel like shit about ourselves for the way that we look and act and

Tami 41:52

Well, yeah, and it's constantly changing. Like one year is supposed to be like a toothpick and the next year, you know, you need a booty and then, you know, like it's never the same.

Sara 42:02

I'll give another plug for a great historical book, Fit Nation. Oh, where did I put it? It's like the history of Ah, here it is. Fit Nation, the gains and pains of America's exercise obsession. good. Like, if you like history, read it. If you're a woman, read it. If you like exercise or are overwhelmed by exercise or don't know what, like any, you can check any of those boxes. It was so good.

Tami 42:32

Awesome.

Sara 42:33

Thank you. Didn't think that the sports bra was going to make any money.

Tami 42:36

Wow.

Sara 42:37

It was Reebok who was like, Hey, we'll get in on the women's here

Tami 42:42

Go Reebok.

Sara 42:43

because women were wearing jock straps as sports bras

Tami 42:48

I did not know that.

Sara 42:50

didn't either. But then I was like, yeah, what did they do before sports bras?

Tami 42:54

wore like three bras,

Sara 42:56

Great. Oh yeah. So

Tami 42:59

something like that. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Sara 43:02

we're, we've got, this is, this is what it's like to have a conversation with me. I apologize if you wanted it

Tami 43:08

this is what it's like to just have a conversation. This is how our human brains work, right? And I, I actually would share this a lot with my pre service teachers because they would want to do group work or have, you know, this time for students to have a conversation. So I think this is a really important thing to say. This is what humans do because you're, you know, Talking about something and it makes you build a connection or you have a connection to something else. And so you'll go talk about that because it makes sense to what you were talking about. And then it brings you back to where you were. That's a very natural, normal human thing. And teachers, that is what you do. You do it all the time. You do it in professional development. You're not quiet the whole time. You don't sit still the whole time. You're not, not touching your phone the whole time. So. So please let's have some grace for our students. That's my plug for students. Okay. Let's stop expecting young people to do things that full grown adult people cannot do. So, no, but I think this makes sense, right? Like all these things. That are happening to women, historically speaking about women, women in history or not as much as history. I just really think that's so interesting about, I had this conversation, maybe I had it with Kate. We were talking about, or I have another colleague who does history from another institution. And you know, all these coaches end up in history. Because I don't know, somehow we think history is not important. So I, which I don't understand because history is really important

Sara 44:35

Yeah.

Tami 44:35

because that's how we learn and try to do better as humans. So you have female students. You mentioned you have female students come to see you. Because of sort of the male gaze, is that the right way to maybe the male gaze, the male positionality, historically speaking in, in history. Ooh, huh?

Sara 44:57

Privilege.

Tami 44:58

Male privilege. That's probably, yes. Ding, ding, ding. The male privilege that exists. So how has. Being able to be in this space right where this is again as another form of representation matters and having people that look like you or may have had some similar Experience or can understand your perspective Better than maybe some others are really important. How do you see that happening or coming together in your worker?

Sara 45:31

I think that, okay, for all my students, right, if I ask them, like, what do you, where do you see yourself in five years, right, a lot of them will be like, I see myself teaching, maybe having started a master's, they'll say different variations of something about a family, you know, or maybe not, you know, thing, you know, kind of like in, in that realm. And, and I want to be like, great. And but what if you're not right? Because the whole idea that we want you to stay in the profession, but a lot of people are leaving in those first, like, three to five years.

Tami 46:03

Yeah

Sara 46:05

And so I've been trying to find a way to help our students understand that teaching is hard.

Tami 46:15

Mm hmm

Sara 46:16

Especially in the beginning, like it is, you're going to have to dig deep. Like you're going to have to work through hard stuff. Like I'm not, and to be clear, I say to them, cause my husband is not in education. I'd be like, I can also say for someone who's in the private sector, like things have not always been great. So like teaching is not the only profession that is hard, right.

Tami 46:35

Mm hmm.

Sara 46:36

But you do have to like set, set like goals and expectations for yourself. And then I say to him, cause some of my female students. Sometimes they're like, Dr. P, I just want to grow up and be you. And at first I'm like, that's incredibly flattering. They're like, you're just, you know, you got two kids and you have two masters, PhD, you know, and this and that. And I want to be like, I want you to know that was really, really hard. Like I'll give like an anecdote, right? So one day I'm teaching, it's a college class. Right. And I know. It's a 300 level, it's a senior class it's a social studies methods class. I know a lot of these students. My husband is out of town for work, so I am what we call in our household, the parent on duty, as in I'm in town, but I can't totally be on duty because I'm teaching, right? I'm teaching and I just put them into groups, I set a timer on the board for like seven minutes or something like that to have them work, and I see a call come through for my kid's school. It's like the dreaded, I'm like, no.

Tami 47:41

Like, oh! Oh, that's the worst feeling.

Sara 47:44

I'm like, just, and I automatically, I don't even know what the call has entailed, who it is in regards to, but I've already gone into problem solver mode while also still trying to like think about this class. So I answer the phone, it's the nurse, can you come get Brooke? And I'm like, I can't. And then I'm, I'm thinking through my Rolodex, like, I'm like, oh my God, everybody that we are friends with here in town that could go collect this child for me and take her home is a teacher or an educator or is like. Here on campus teaching right now. And so I have a student and another who is One of the benefits being on a college campus is you have a lot of responsible drivers. So I say,

Tami 48:24

Yes, I, I used some former students for my child pickup people for

Sara 48:28

Oh, so basically I'm about to have Brie, my current driver in my next class. I call Brie, Brie, can you go get my daughter, can you take her home and then be back in class? And, and I was like, and I'll pay you, right?

Tami 48:44

hmm.

Sara 48:44

And drops everything. I called the nurse back. I'm like, here's the name of the, the, you know, the person who's going to come get it, come get her. All this stuff works out. It's I do all that in less than seven minutes and then I cut the timer goes off and I come back and I'm like, I'm ready to just move on. Right. And all students are just like sitting there like this. They're like, did you just do that? I was like, I was like, so to be clear, like when you're teaching high school, that wouldn't be the very best way. And they're like, wait, wait, wait, you just like parented and taught us at the same time. And I was like, okay, so actually that's like, okay. And not a great I'm actually setting a really like bad example of how to do but like that's the expectation right like the other parent was out of town. I was trying to do the very best I could to keep with my obligations. And so some of the female students talked to me a couple days later and they're just like, so we said that we wanted to be you but it turns out that like being you might be a lot of work, and I was like, yeah, like it is. Yeah. I have all like I would hats, plates, whatever you're doing, like, I can't just be like, okay, from 11 to 1215, I am just going to be your professor for this class. And like, usually that is my sole responsibility. And I just realized that night why I felt this intense level of burnout. And I felt like I had to come home and disassociate because I had to keep doing what I was doing. Right. No, could I have stopped what I was doing and cancelled my classes and gone and got my daughter? Yes. It would, you know, I really felt based on what the nurse told me, I think, like, I didn't feel to be clear and I'm sounding like a terrible mother. I didn't feel that it required me. I think she just needed to be home.

Tami 50:32

You don't sound like a terrible mother, but that, you know, there's an actual theory about that. But like the good enough mother, if you heard about this, yeah. Right. That's not a thing. Like, and mothers do that. They're like, Oh, I feel, no, you, you took care of your child.

Sara 50:49

Her needs, her needs were met in between. And I, of course, it was a day that I taught back to back classes. In that 10 minutes, I talked to her on the phone, made sure everything was okay. Taught another, you know, and so like, I think this. And that's just like one example, like if you are, you know, in high school when you're teaching high school and it's, you know, it's a seven period day or eight period day and you know, you teach five of them and you know, you have a plan period and then you have a lunch and a duty like there is, I think you are on so much of our profession. Not, you know, like I even was like joking, I was like doing this podcast at seven o'clock at night should definitely be out of my bra and in yoga pants at this point. Like, it'll be on zoom. So I got to think about that. I was talking to my parents last night. I was like, Oh, I got to get into my pajamas. Like, please know I need to get I'm in comfy clothes. I need to get into more comfortable clothes. Like there's a trajectory.

Tami 51:53

Yes.

Sara 51:54

But I think that For women, I'm going to speak about women in education because I, this happens to all my female friends that are also in the corporate world, in realtors, anything, any, any woman. I feel like we often do our jobs. We do some of the invisible female related tasks and depending on what's going on in your personal life and to be clear, I have a wonderful husband. He's an excellent co parent but like our responsibilities don't just stop during those bell hours. And so I can see burnout is a big part of that. even higher for female teachers. I have often, so I just now have a child in high school. So I still have my license, but I haven't used my nine through 12 license in a while. So it's like theoretically the first time I could teach one of my children. And let's just know that that would be go disastrous. It would be, I'm like yesterday he had to write a paper and he was like, I shouldn't have dad read it. I was like, you're right. I, And to be clear, my husband is a grammar genius, but like, no, I don't teach people how to write or have written a dissertation, thesis, you know but I often, when my children were little, would wonder, I was like, how do elementary school teachers do this and then go home and have their own small children?

Tami 53:25

You know, I actually taught elementary, middle, I've taught all grades, elementary, middle, and high school and college. I'm a weird little unicorn girl.

Sara 53:37

You are a unicorn. So

Tami 53:38

know, I

Sara 53:39

your favorite?

Tami 53:41

Oh, you know what? I like them all for different reasons,

Sara 53:44

That's what you say, especially with like, who's your favorite child?

Tami 53:46

but I really mean it. Like, that's not a cop out answer. Like, I really do enjoy them for different reasons. The elementary kids, I just love, they're just. So curious and they're just, they're also like really cute, but I just love their curiosity and they just think of things and they just share those things and oftentimes they haven't like yet hit the world that's told them that that's weird. Right. And they just are themselves. And I love that about elementary kids. Middle schoolers, I feel like get this bad rap, right? But I love this juxtaposition of them like where they're like still kind of kid like but then they're trying to be grown And they they get sarcasm now, which is super fun Right, so they're a fun middle school group. High school kids, you could have some really in depth conversation with high school kids. They really are like pioneers and like a lot of ways around advocating, especially high school kids now, right? They're, they're really trying to use their voice. And I actually think we could take some lessons from these young people about how to advocate for what's important to us and be a little relentless about it. I love that. Like be. Unshakably relentless about what sets your soul on fire and what is important, right? Like truly important. So, you know, and they're, they're like trying to figure out what they want to do in, in the world. Right. And so, you know, and then college students are also trying to figure out what they're doing, but

Sara 55:31

but they can drink and not, and they're not required to go to class.

Tami 55:36

Right? I, I mean, and I, I had the privilege. I mostly taught juniors and seniors cause you know, I was in teacher ed too. So it was like at the point where they were like interested in their career at another institution. Like I worked with freshmen and stuff and they were trying to figure it out, but I just enjoy, like they're also figuring out what they want to do and like the potential and the, of these folks to go out into the field of education with their thoughts and ideas. So I, I, I enjoyed them all

Sara 56:05

In like So I have a so and I have my I can teach junior high but I never did. But my daughter's in eighth grade. And so, and so basically like for the past four years, you know, my son is in ninth grade, my son's a freshman. So it's been very interesting. You know, like I said, I can actually like I have taught high school and could theoretically teach him. And it's at. And he also, I should share, like, he is autistic and has ADHD, so we have a lot of these conversations about how, like, our public schools are not built for neurodiverse kids, right? And, and how,

Tami 56:42

Mm

Sara 56:44

when I studied and like, well, how did you study? I spent so much time and I'm like, but what did you do during that? You know, it's just like, and, you know, when, when things are so black and white, To him. It's just in, and I guess that's another piece to go back to. I think you may have only asked me one question, maybe two, but to go back to like my very first, your first question about diversity, equity and inclusion. I think that an area of education that I never really thought of. I felt as a general ed teacher, I was in IEP meetings. Right. And even as a college instructor, I, I meet all the accommodations. Right. I feel like I have, I have more accommodations now than I used to. I have like a folder. I even actually then started just keeping a note, like on like a quick one, like this class and just so I can remember. Because in high school, there was a person that did that for you, right? That is, is one drawback of, and we can talk about that even too, like, how do we meet the accommodations? We have all these kiddos who've had accommodations K 12, and they come in and, you know, sometimes people who weren't previously K 12 teachers, they don't even really understand accommodations, right? Or,

Tami 57:54

Well, yes, because historically speaking, you just need to be an expert in your content, not necessarily an educator in higher ed. Yeah. Mm

Sara 58:04

here, it, it is more work. Now, I would say most of my That just because of the nature of my classes, a lot of them are just like time and a half, but I don't, like on exams, like I don't really give exams, like a lot of it's like papers and lesson plans, you know, but I tell when I do teach freshmen and even now when I teach juniors and seniors, I say, listen, you had an accommodation, K 12, now is not the time to take the training wheels off. Right. Like, use your accommodations. Because you still, you still have these four years of teaching or four years as a student. So I think that that had been an interesting space for me as a parent. So Jake was diagnosed between 4th and 5th grade. So that was so basically when he was in 5th grade, that was the 1st time I attended an IEP meeting as a parent and. Even my husband, again, not in education, you know, I had printed out an IP, it was highlighted, I had notes, everything, and he like read it and everything, but afterwards he was like, what do people do if, if they go into one of these meetings and one of the two people aren't in education?

Tami 59:12

Yeah.

Sara 59:13

And to be clear, like, they've all, they've all had great interactions and everything, but like even the system, It's like a law that's meant to help and protect kids and to give them, you know, the least restrictive environment and everything. But sometimes I think that it's not only overwhelming for the student, but it's overwhelming for the, for the parents. And so I think that that's another piece of the diversity, equity and inclusion,

Tami 59:37

Mm hmm.

Sara 59:38

I like to use in my, I use the word neuro spicy. But you are, are, are neuro are neuro diverse friends because they, that it's a whole, you know, and you hear people say like, everybody has a diagnosis now or everybody's on a prescription now. And I was like, well, but the thing is like, there's a really good chance that. People were just not being diagnosed for a really long time. We didn't know we didn't hit, you know,

Tami 1:00:04

Oh, I, I would agree with that. Like, we didn't know what we didn't know. And now that we know, right? I think the worst thing to do is always look at, like, how something was done to determine how something should be done. Like, because just because you've done it that way in the past doesn't mean that's still the best way. Because when you know more, you should do better. Right? Like, and even access. Yes. To come to those IEP meetings, right, because I don't know what the solution is that but they always have in the middle of the day and if you have parents that can't get there, like, and I'm not saying that teachers should have to stay after school, but you know, there's a lot of complicated things around access that are really important to think about too related to that because that's a whole barrier for folks.

Sara 1:00:54

even just knowing, like, to your example earlier, you said earlier, like, everybody thinks they're an expert in education because they were a student once. Right. And so, but when you're coming to that space as a parent who needs an accommodation, you know, if you had a, you had a, like, first of all, even walking into a high school or junior high can just like trigger trauma. Right. Like or assuming that like your bad experience is also going to happen to your kid, you know, like, and even just I have found that the, the, the. The people that we have worked with have been really awesome and accommodating especially because, like, I ask questions from the perspective of a, of an educator, but I'm not a special educator, you know, in a I was a general ed and my husband asks questions from somebody who, like, Didn't have an IEP, doesn't know, you know, he, he knows Jake and he knows what will work best for him, like, and I think even just like, whether you have a diagnosis or not, like a new space that I, that, that teacher ed, a new responsibility of teacher ed is executive function. I now spend and my colleagues as well, like their advisor and other folks teaching methods classes, we now have to say, do you have a planner? Do you know how to use a planner? Because this, I hate saying like this generation, this group, the Google classroom group, and they think that going into what we now use Canvas, Just going in there and finding due dates, like that's their planner. And we're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, it's figuring, you know, learning how to balance, like I sat down with a student once. I said, okay, let's lay, I do this regularly now, teaching them how to plan their week.

Tami 1:02:53

Yeah.

Sara 1:02:54

down when you have class, when you work, this and that. Then we tell them, scheduling, like what, What is, what, what do you like? What makes you tick? You know, some of them, you know, I like to lift, you know, I like, you know, what I like to read. Okay, we schedule it in. I say, let's just for fun schedule in 8 hours of sleep. Okay, just because. Okay, and even though we're history majors, let's do a little math. There's 24 hours in a day and then I show them that little graphic that little chart that says, like, if you have a 3 credit class, like, how many hours a week, it's, you know, Okay. So, okay. And let's, and so we do the math and it like, you just see like the steam coming out of their ear. They're like, the math doesn't math. Like it does it, you know? And so it's just teaching them how to manage their time because they were in high school. Where there was 50 minutes every day, a lot of because they see your teacher every day. A lot of time is built in to work on things in class. You, your evenings were scheduled, right? Whether you worked or whether you were babysitting or whether you had this practice, like, your whole day was figured out for you and then you get to college and you make a schedule and you have to figure these things out. And like, they, like, they, they just, they can't do it.

Tami 1:04:17

Yeah.

Sara 1:04:19

And it's, it is, it is a, like a hate, like blaming things on COVID, but I do think like, it's a, I did not have to spend this much time executive functioning, time management, how to use a planner. I did, that is something I did not do regularly before COVID

Tami 1:04:39

Hmm. That's interesting.

Sara 1:04:42

because they don't do planner check, right? Like think about like in junior high and high school. Well, not maybe not so much high school, maybe freshmen, but like in junior high, even in elementary, like I remember signing my kids planners and then it just like went away because it's on a device.

Tami 1:04:59

I never had to sign a planner, nor did I ever, that was never even an expectation, but you know, I'm a Gen Xer. So I was literally responsible for myself by the time I was like seven. So

Sara 1:05:13

I'm in this weird space. Where I am considered a geriatric millennial, which I think is just really mean, like, because

Tami 1:05:22

that,

Sara 1:05:24

I was born in 1982. So, like, I had things like we had a landline, right? Like, we were able, like, I made mixed tapes. There's like a whole list of things that, like, make you a before and after.

Tami 1:05:39

yes, no, but you know, So even if they're digital, I think this brings up a good point, right? Like we need to think about as times move, how do our systems and structures change to help support students with success? And it may look different than it did before. what do I do now? Oh, I always had a planner or I signed a planner. I used a paper planner. Like I haven't used paper planner myself in a long time. Cause I love, like I had, as soon as I had a Blackberry and I could like color code stuff, like I was like a happy girl,

Sara 1:06:16

and what we tell them is, you don't have to have a paper planner, right? Okay. But you have, you have to have a system, you know, a lot of them be like, I use this sticky note feature on my laptop. That's not a system, you know, like, or they'll say like, I make a huge long to do list and I get overwhelmed. I say, okay, I got a strategy for you. Make your huge long to do list, pick the top three things, do those three things, and then go watch one episode of a show on Netflix, and then come back. You know what I mean? Like, and so they, it's just the, the strategies, I guess,

Tami 1:06:50

Yes.

Sara 1:06:51

And so I don't, I don't have, I mean, I use a hybrid model of a calendar, like we have a family shared calendar that I have shoot into my Outlook calendar, but I also still I like to sometimes, I like to paper it and kind of make, I do a little bit of both.

Tami 1:07:11

That's fair. That's fair.

Sara 1:07:12

There's no right way or

Tami 1:07:14

There is no right or wrong way. You find your own system. And make it work for you and borrow from other people's systems. So, well, Sara, Sara, Sara, this has been such, such a pleasure. And I always like to end with a pro tip advice. What would be, when we're thinking about equity work, what's kind of your pro tip and advice for the listeners?

Sara 1:07:39

So I'm gonna mess up the quote. But Shirley Chisholm quote Ugh, wait. It's one of those things that like, I have it in my if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. That is Shirley Chisholm. If they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. And so I think that I think my, my message is, okay. Couple parts. If you're at the table who do you need to invite in Voice is not being heard because you you have the privilege of being at a table. So who else can you invite? And advocate for yourself. I think that it's really important to, it's gonna, it's gonna make you uncomfortable from time to time. But I do think you have to say like, this situation is wrong and there needs to be other voices at this table. So yeah, I used a historical quote for my pro tip.

Tami 1:08:33

I love it, though. I love it because those are both very important things for us to think about and reflect on in our equity journey. Because how do you use your allyship to support, you The equity efforts and other people's voices. So I love that. I want to thank you, Sara, so much for your time today. It has been such a pleasure talking to you. I want to, yes, so fun. And thank you all the listeners. I will make sure to put links in the show notes to the books we talked about today. And remember to like, share, and subscribe to this podcast and share with your educator friends. And remember to use your voice today.