Equity in the Classroom: Cultivating Minds, Inspiring Change, Building Community

In today's episode Dr. Tami is talking with Kelly Schrems. Kelly is a high school teacher from Bloomington, IL.   Dr. Tami and Kelly discuss the dual credit class where Kelly is planning on using the  graphic novel, Wake, by Rebecca Hall.   Dr. Tami and Kelly explore the planning for use of this novel and the importance of community and choice for students. 

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Transcript

 Welcome everyone to the Dragonfly Rising Podcast. I am Dr. Tami Dean, and I have Kelly joining us today from normal Illinois. So I'm gonna let Kelly introduce herself and tell us a little bit about her and what she does and her thoughts around equity. 

Hi guys. My name is Kelly. I am a guest on this podcast today. I am really, really excited. So first I guess I'll just like, introduce myself, give a little bit of my background and talk about how I came to have a passion for equity, especially in the classroom. So I went to Illinois State.

I started in 2013. That is where I met the lovely Dr. Tami Dean. I graduated in 2017 and immediately got a job at Bloomington High School which is very close to Illinois State University. It's just the town right over. Immediately after that I started a master's degree at Illinois State in history.

And that's kind of a lot of where. My initial introduction to like equity and these types of topics came from on social justice, the importance of diversity, things like that. And I would really say that a lot of that sparked for me in my job at Bloomington High School. I'm from Vernon Hills, which is about an hour north of Chicago.

It is a very not diverse place. So it was quite a wake up call when I started teaching in. Illinois fourth most diverse district is our statistic. In district 87 in Bloomington. It was quite a wake up call all of a sudden being with students of every possible background, every possible religion.

I had students coming in from the Congo, speaking French. I had like, Just all types of students that I had never come into contact with before. So that's kind of where all of this started for me. And then a lot of my research and a lot of the things that I looked into in my master's program had a lot to do with schools and equity and things like that.

Yeah. 

Yeah. That's so exciting. You know, I didn't realize, Kelly, that Bloomington had that distinction of being the fourth most diverse district. I hadn't realized that. So that, that's super exciting. Yeah. And y'all heard like, Kelly and I, like, I was a professor back then at Illinois State. So we've stayed in contact, which is so exciting, which is how will let us here today.

'cause Kelly and I are friends on social media and she posts some amazing things she does with her students and they're so exciting. And one of the things that. She was looking into doing that we're gonna talk about today is there's this amazing graphic novel and it is called, I'm gonna show it up.

It's called Wake by Rebecca Hill. And I love this because it just gets into intersectionality and. Of diversity, of experience, talking about women. Women are, you know, lost oftentimes in history. Even the name, history, you know, like it has the word his in it, right? So  patriarchy is always coming for us ladies, but So this graphic novel is amazing.

If you haven't taken a look, I highly suggest it. So Kelly has some amazing plans. Kelly, you wanna talk a little bit about the book and kind of what drew you to it and

Absolutely. I, I don't remember how I found the book to be honest. I think like it went past me on social media at some point and I was just like, oh, that looks interesting. So I just ordered a copy and I think it was last winter break that I read it and I ended up reading it in like three hours because I was like so enthralled.

Once I started I was like, oh my gosh, what is this?  And so I plan actually to use it. I'm, I'm bringing a dual credit class to Bloomington High School this coming school year through partnership with Heartland Community College here in normal. So that's kind of my purpose of the class I'm going to use it in.

But as I started reading it, what really drew my attention to it is that Dr. Hall Point in the book is kind of like twofold. So she kind of has like a historical argument and then she has more of like a, like a method type of argument. So her historical argument has to do with the idea that when we talk about slave revolts specifically, women are almost always left outta that story.

It is assumed that it is men that are leading most of these flavor volts. And that women are not really ever part of that story. So obviously Dr. Hall is like, no, that is not true. And she says all types of primary source research to prove why that's not true. But the cool thing about the book that's already cool, right?

Right. Yes, absolutely.

Right. Is that like she flips back and forth? So like every other chapter is like one chapter about these women-led flavor volts that she's researched. And then the next chapter is about like her experience in, in researching it and how she's struggling as a historian, as a female historian, attempting to find documentation.

Like there's this one whole chapter.  Where she talks about, I can't remember, it's like a, a bank in London where she wanted to go and get these like primary documents that she thought would help her write this research. And the bank is just straight up like, no, we do not give documents. We

was Lloyd's of London, right? Wasn't it? Yes. Yes.

that's what it was. And they were like, no, we're not giving you anything. Obviously in this institution is attempting to hide their Past involves with slavery is why they're refusing to give her these documents. But I really like it for my students, and particularly in a dual credit class, because they're not only going to see these amazing stories of women-led slave revolts, but they're also gonna see the challenges that historians can face in finding these documents, which can really, it can really answer the question like, okay, why are women missing?

Like, why don't we have these stories? Where are they and how can we find them? And then also just. Sometimes the inability to do so. The sad truth that we have institutions that are trying to hide these stories, and I'm hoping it leads to great conversations about how do we get around that? What is it actually like to study history?

Yeah.

Yeah, I do think that's something that's so compelling. I know there was multiple pieces like that, Lloyd's of London, like how they were basically ensuring the slaves on the slave ship. Right. And so I. This powerful idea. And you know, we see this in lots of places in America and American history, and especially in this climate right now, right?

Where we're trying to deny the events that happened and took place. Right? And so I think that's interesting, right? Because this is our, you know, ancestral connection back to England and the colonies and all those things. And they're trying to hide what they were involved in and like, Let the the truth be the truth.

 And I think that's the biggest thing when we talk about, and you can tell me what you think about this. When I think about like equity and social justice, to me it's like, let's focus on the truth. Like it's not, we can't apply to today's evaluation or expectation or social cultural norms to what happened, doesn't make it right.

But at the same time, like ignoring it, we're doomed to. Repeat our history, right? We're not gonna really be able to think about the systems and structures that exist and how to make them better.  Because if we can't go back and look at the history, then how do we know how to make it, make it different, right?

And so, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think about that? I mean, I'm curious  

I. 

Kind of a struggle, kind of frustrating for me in our current climate. Especially I'm a history teacher, so that has been interesting over the last two or three years. Something that really frustrates me in some of these examples of like trying to hide these stories and limit what teachers can talk about in the classroom and kind of limit you know, specific groups of people being talked about.

Something that really frustrates me is I look at my classroom.  And I'm like, but this story applies to maybe 75% of the students in here. So it's just very frustrating when we're choosing what we can teach versus what we can't. But there's students in the classroom that like, but that is their history.

But that does apply to them. But that is what like their past is about. So why is one group of students. Allowed to hear a story that relates to them and another group of students isn't. I just don't, I don't particularly understand. And ob obviously, that argument is oftentimes coming from people not in a classroom.

But I, I don't under, I don't understand how we do the mental gymnastics to make that decision, so I dunno.

Oh, I'm right there with you, right? Like,  Like who's, I always think about this, like when we think about history or books or texts or any of those things, right? Well, we probably talked about this way back when we were in class together, right? Like, I, I'm just thinking about it. I was like, wait a second.

I think we talked about this, but like, whose voice is privileged and whose voice is heard, right. And perspective because, you know,  you and I can experience the same thing. And have a different story and perspective about that, that same event, and both are valuable and important, you know, to the big picture.

So  so I love that this is in this book.





So I love this about the book, right? The juxtaposition of her experience, like you were talking about as a woman, as a researcher with the, the history of it and the, the powerful of the imagery in the graphic novel. I know sometimes people think graphic novels are simpler.

Text, but I, I really feel like they're very complex because they also inquire a lot of inferring or looking at how the artist has also chosen to represent. So you may be able to like, read through the words quickly, but to really dive in is gonna take some more time. So I know you were, have some kind of plan, you have some plans for this dual credit class.

So talk to me a little bit about how you plan on using it with these students. It's very exciting. 

I'm still kind of working through some of the like decisions that I need to make. I know that like I do want to sit down and like read with them, like I want to be there with them in the text. I want to be able to like pause and talk about things. I think that that's really, really important. In terms of like what we're gonna do with the text, I kind of have like two. 

That I might go down. I'm considering even giving students a choice in what they want to do. So I was thinking about, actually this first idea was inspired by my student teacher this past year.

Oh, that's awesome. We love that.

yeah. So my student teacher had found, I think she borrowed it from someone else. Maybe she found this Like virtual museum that you can basically like create.

So it's like a, it's like a Google Slides and like there's all these little like links that take you to all the different rooms and there's different purposes. There's like, you can insert like primary sources, images, things like that. So I'm considering kind of having the conversation with students like, okay, so if this is a topic that is so hidden that we're not seeing, then let's create a virtual museum for it.

So I was kind of considering going that route. And then I had also gotten a really cool, I'll have to send you the website because maybe you can provide it. My assistant pri, my assistant principal, actually found a website that compiles all of Dr. Hall's primary source material. And it has a bunch of lesson plans.

Like it's a whole bunch of stuff already prepared. For teaching Wake. So I could direct students there and have them like use those primary sources as resources for their little virtual museum. So that's one idea that I'm kind of toying with. The other one that I'm kind of to with is just. Hearing their thoughts, like having them write some type of like reflection or maybe create like a reflection song or poem or write a paper, kind of whatever they wanna do with it, but just kind of hearing out their thoughts.

These are, I'm used to teaching freshmen, but these are gonna be juniors and seniors who are receiving college credit. And I kind of wanna push them to. What, what did you actually learn from this? Like, what are you taking away? What are you walking to the next phase of your education with, with this knowledge?

So I don't know. I'm kind of going both ways and I could totally change my mind and do something different because that's 

Well, you know, like, well, that's how it happens, right? And sometimes you start with one thing and you're like, oh wait, that's amazing. Or I'm gonna go this direction. But those are both, those both sound just so amazing. I'm gonna tell you the first thing I love is like just they both have choice involved, right?

So  students I think, provide.  The most enlightening information when we give them some choice around how they express their learning and understanding and connection. Right. So that's, that's amazing. I think the virtual museum sounds amazing. I mean, I almost feel like you could combine them a little bit, right?

Like, Your thoughts around, they're reflecting on this, how does that connect to them and their story and who they are? And then also like, we wanna share this out with others. You almost sounds a little P B L, like, you know, like project, like, here's your question. And we have this text and we're

based learning. Yeah.

Yeah.  A little bit. Don't you think?

Yeah, definitely.

A little bit. A little bit. So the, oh, that's so exciting. How many stu, do you know how many students you're gonna have in the fall?

So it's only a one semester class, so I'm gonna get to do it.  It twice, like first semester and again second semester. And I, I have one class each semester, so that means it have to be, in order for those numbers to work out in like the scheduling of classes, I have to have between 20 and 30 per semester.

So, yeah, I don't know yet. I should be knowing that soon. And I'm a lot of these students, this is like a new class I'm bringing to Bloomington High School. So a lot of these students are students I've already had that are just like, let me get back in the re class. So it'll be a cool experience because it'll be a lot of kids that I already know.

So it'll kind of be like, hit the ground running. They're already with me. They already get my teaching. They already are like, ready to go. So yeah, I, I think it's gonna be a good, a good experience.

I do too. You know, I think that also speaks to when we think about having the opportunity to have these. Really deep and important conversations. It comes back to relationship. Right. And, you know, I've had the privilege of seeing some of that via, you know, Instagram and those kinds of things, like how you build those relationships.

And high school students are like hilarious, right? They just really are. And they, they mature so much from freshman

Mm-hmm. 

But like, You just said like, these are students you've had before and they're wanting to come back. Right. And have this class with you. So I think that's just a huge testimony to you as an educator and how you  value and privilege the relationship with your students because the relationship is the key to  all the things, at least in my, that's in, in in Tamad dean's

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it, even like the opportunity, this class, lemme give a little background. So the opportunity of this class in general, I feel like speaks to the equity piece. You know, we offer AP u s history, which is obviously also a great opportunity at the sophomore level. The amount of students we have though that as.

Freshmen are not ready to, you know, take that AP class are a little bit nervous. AP kind of comes with a stigma. I was like that in high school. I didn't take any AP classes because I was afraid of them. I thought that.  Again, I thought that they were not, like, I thought that I wasn't good enough, like I was not gonna be able to do those classes.

I was gonna fail. I just talked myself into thinking that was not an option for me. So the amount of students that as freshmen are just not ready to make that decision, there's a lot of them. So we end up with a very tracked system of like, you take honors and then you take ap, and then everybody that didn't make that initial decision to do the honors level.

They're just left out of all those opportunities. So the dual credit opportunity is really cool because now as a junior senior, if you're starting to realize, hey, like I didn't challenge myself initially and now I would like to challenge myself and maybe in an environment where you already know the teacher, like the amount of students that have chosen to take this class because they said, Ms, I trust you.

Like, I don't know if I'm ready for a dual credit class, but I trust you. I think that that makes a big difference in the students that we're gonna see having this opportunity for this college level credit. And just the opportunity to have more advanced content presented to them. Like this Wake book we're not talking about, well, not that we're not talking about, but it's not part of the curriculum in our general American history class that they take sophomore year.

So now here's the opportunity once they're ready. So I definitely think that like brings in much more equity of having multiple opportunities for various different students. You're not ready to do AP sophomore year. That's fine. You can do this year, senior year. I just, I, I'm really excited about that opportunity.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so powerful because you know,  Historically marginalized students, right. Are told that's not your, that's not for you. Right? Or they get that message, or like you said, I'm not ready, or I don't wanna take ap. Right? Because you know the thing with the AP too, right? There's a test involved.

There's like, there's a, there's a whole nother level of. I'm gonna call it gatekeeping for advanced placement classes. That isn't quite there for dual credit and like you do your dual credit, you have college credit, right? Like you've done the work and put it in. So I think that's one of the benefits of dual credit, you know, over an AP course.

For, for me. So, but no, that's so exciting, right? Like you have all these opportunities and options and, you know, kudos to District 87 for putting this on the books as an option. We love that. And I, you know, I think it was so exciting too. Yeah. Like,  so I found this book. Because of Kelly. So she was telling you how she found it?

She had posted it in her story, and I was like,  okay, that's my, that's totally my vibe. I'm gonna buy this book. So I went out and bought it like that day. Yay. Amazon.  And  Ruta, and I just, of course, you know, I, you know, I'm an avid reader, so I'm always sharing all the things that I'm reading, but, and then you're like, I'm like, You're like, I wanna teach this class.

And I was like, yes, teach this class.  She was gonna put together a GoFundMe.  She had put it together and then, and then it was gone. I'm like, Hey, where'd it go? 'cause I was about to share this with my people so they could buy these books. So the amazing piece to this is the support you have from administration.

'cause they went and got the funds for you to have these books. And that is like, What we, what we love to see, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

is getting behind

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

opportunities for students. So,

Definitely, yeah. It was my, it was my lead teacher. I took it to him and I'm like, I was ready to like, sell the book. I was ready to like, make my argument and I was like, I really like this. He's like, Kelly, stop. Like if you think it's great, like good, we'll do it. Like let's go for it. And my, I didn't have the best luck with the GoFundMe, so my lead teacher had the amazing idea of reaching out to the organization's called, not In Our Town

Uhhuh.

schools.

And they, and basically my lead teacher, like presented it to them to the, not in our school kind of board or I, I don't know how the group actually functions, but he presented it to them and they were like, yes, we love this. That's great. You just need administration's approval. So then I did take the book to my assistant principal who's also my evaluator, who was also a social studies teacher.

So he obviously wanted to read it. He wanted to look into it, so then he ended up reading it. That's when he found that website with like all of the extra like lesson plans and materials and I'll definitely get that to you.

Yes. Yes. We'll share that out. Yes, for sure.

so everybody was kind of on board and I was really excited about it.

And I think that students are gonna like it too. Mm-hmm.

I think so. I think so. I can't wait to hear how this goes and what you Decide to do with it ex like when you, when you, when you nail that down. So we, are y'all gonna be coming back and talking to Kelly after she teaches the class? Like how it went, what did she do? Lessons learned. I would love to do that in between semesters.

Like what do you, and then, you know, what did you learn and how do you wanna it up for the next semester? 'cause I think that's the most powerful thing too, right? Is. You just always gotta, you just gotta take that next step and try it. Right. Because even if it isn't perfect,  when we're making decisions that are best for students that are focused on social justice and equity, like you really  can't go wrong.

You can just learn and do better. Right. I mean,

absolutely. 

I've been doing this work for,  gosh, 25. 25 years. And I'm always learning new things, new ways of thinking, new ways of trying things from other people. And I think  that's kind of the key. Like who do you,  who do you like listen to and who do you like for you, like, you know, in your journey, like who has been influential for you or what are your thoughts on that? 

I would definitely say like the most influential have been like my influences within academia. So a lot of my professors taking very seriously like the research pieces and the credible sources pieces and the credible information pieces. And you know, when you're looking for what information, like I always start with like a.

Historian's argument. I obviously, I'm lucky to have had a master's degree in history, so I have like a lot of background knowledge there, but I'm always starting with, okay, what do I know is true in the academic world? Just because.  With all of our  current issues, our current media problems, it can be really daunting to figure out like, where do I even go?

Where do I find information? Starting with academic sources is where you have to start. And I've, I've found that a lot of those academic sources, all those academic sources really lead into these opportunities for equity. So yeah, I think that that's  really important.

Yes, yes, for sure. I love that. Go. Go to go to the source, right?

absolutely.

Yes.

is why, you know, historians and, and social studies and history teachers are like, primary source documents are really

Yes,

Like  read them and pay attention. Right. And I, I think, you know, social media is fabulous and it's connected us in ways that  we weren't connected before.

I also think like, how do we  intellectually think about where is that information? Coming from and is it true and right, and is it just right? 

 I have to do that in my classroom all the time. The most common thing this past year was Summer Rems I saw on TikTok last night, and I'd be like, oh my God. And then we'd have to show me the TikTok, okay, where do we actually find this? What does this actually mean? So I did that a lot past school year.

See, but I love that, right? Because we're taking something. That students are using on their everyday life and being like, okay, that's great. You saw that now and, and we do this. Right? Like, you could do that and this, you know, so I, I do think.  Things are getting shared more. We have more voice. Like, I mean, even this podcast, right?

Like we have an opportunity to reach out to people that we normally wouldn't reach out. And I mean, we're not even in the same state, so like,

Right. 

which is amazing, you know? So I love that. I love that. So just thinking about your experience Kind of any, any pro tips or things you wanna share with people who are maybe just getting started on their journey with trying to be more socially just or address equity with their students?

What kinds of things would you like to share with them? I.

I actually kind of wanna bring it back to a point that you just made with like, teachers having to make decisions about curriculum and, you know, decisions of like what sources to use and making sure you're including diversity, you're taking equity into account. One of the problems that I have noticed early in my career  is that there is.

Always something extra to add. There's always writing skills you have to work on. There is always like an extra like diverse source you can bring in. There's always gonna be an extra thing that administration expects you to do. There's always gonna be a new state standard that you have to include. What I have found is that you are never going to do every single thing.

You are never going to bring every single thing in. So you really need to look at your student population and what is going to drive, like their inquiry and their engagement. And I find nine times out of 10 that when I make the choice, Of, okay, like this lesson, I'm gonna make sure that I talk about women led slave roles.

Those are always the lessons that hit it out of the park because my students immediately attach to that and immediately want to know more. So I have never, ever, ever regretted being like, all right, I guess I'm gonna put writing a paragraph on the back burner for this one day, and we're gonna talk about this specific topic instead.

I have never regretted that. I just think especially young teachers like it is gonna feel overwhelming. And it is gonna feel like you're expected to do everything. You also have some choice though, and I always think that going for the d e I approach always works. Always. Mm-hmm.

Oh, yes. Okay. We're just gonna end with that because 100% right. Never regret it. Never regret it. I, I  co-sign that a hundred percent. I have never regretted standing up for students doing what's right for students, engaging with the students. I think if you keep student center, you're always right where you need.

Need to be and seek out those people that, you know, can be your support team and, and reach out.  Reach out to them. So. Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelly for that tidbit. That was perfect and for talking with us today. Looking forward to hearing how this goes with Wake and we will get the link to you all for the resources and check out the book.




















 Welcome everyone to the Dragonfly Rising Podcast. I am Dr. Tami Dean, and I have Kelly joining us today from normal Illinois. So I'm gonna let Kelly introduce herself and tell us a little bit about her and what she does and her thoughts around equity. 

Hi guys. My name is Kelly. I am a guest on this podcast today. I am really, really excited. So first I guess I'll just like, introduce myself, give a little bit of my background and talk about how I came to have a passion for equity, especially in the classroom. So I went to Illinois State.

I started in 2013. That is where I met the lovely Dr. Tami Dean. I graduated in 2017 and immediately got a job at Bloomington High School which is very close to Illinois State University. It's just the town right over. Immediately after that I started a master's degree at Illinois State in history.

And that's kind of a lot of where. My initial introduction to like equity and these types of topics came from on social justice, the importance of diversity, things like that. And I would really say that a lot of that sparked for me in my job at Bloomington High School. I'm from Vernon Hills, which is about an hour north of Chicago.

It is a very not diverse place. So it was quite a wake up call when I started teaching in. Illinois fourth most diverse district is our statistic. In district 87 in Bloomington. It was quite a wake up call all of a sudden being with students of every possible background, every possible religion.

I had students coming in from the Congo, speaking French. I had like, Just all types of students that I had never come into contact with before. So that's kind of where all of this started for me. And then a lot of my research and a lot of the things that I looked into in my master's program had a lot to do with schools and equity and things like that.

Yeah. 

Yeah. That's so exciting. You know, I didn't realize, Kelly, that Bloomington had that distinction of being the fourth most diverse district. I hadn't realized that. So that, that's super exciting. Yeah. And y'all heard like, Kelly and I, like, I was a professor back then at Illinois State. So we've stayed in contact, which is so exciting, which is how will let us here today.

'cause Kelly and I are friends on social media and she posts some amazing things she does with her students and they're so exciting. And one of the things that. She was looking into doing that we're gonna talk about today is there's this amazing graphic novel and it is called, I'm gonna show it up.

It's called Wake by Rebecca Hill. And I love this because it just gets into intersectionality and. Of diversity, of experience, talking about women. Women are, you know, lost oftentimes in history. Even the name, history, you know, like it has the word his in it, right? So  patriarchy is always coming for us ladies, but So this graphic novel is amazing.

If you haven't taken a look, I highly suggest it. So Kelly has some amazing plans. Kelly, you wanna talk a little bit about the book and kind of what drew you to it and

Absolutely. I, I don't remember how I found the book to be honest. I think like it went past me on social media at some point and I was just like, oh, that looks interesting. So I just ordered a copy and I think it was last winter break that I read it and I ended up reading it in like three hours because I was like so enthralled.

Once I started I was like, oh my gosh, what is this?  And so I plan actually to use it. I'm, I'm bringing a dual credit class to Bloomington High School this coming school year through partnership with Heartland Community College here in normal. So that's kind of my purpose of the class I'm going to use it in.

But as I started reading it, what really drew my attention to it is that Dr. Hall Point in the book is kind of like twofold. So she kind of has like a historical argument and then she has more of like a, like a method type of argument. So her historical argument has to do with the idea that when we talk about slave revolts specifically, women are almost always left outta that story.

It is assumed that it is men that are leading most of these flavor volts. And that women are not really ever part of that story. So obviously Dr. Hall is like, no, that is not true. And she says all types of primary source research to prove why that's not true. But the cool thing about the book that's already cool, right?

Right. Yes, absolutely.

Right. Is that like she flips back and forth? So like every other chapter is like one chapter about these women-led flavor volts that she's researched. And then the next chapter is about like her experience in, in researching it and how she's struggling as a historian, as a female historian, attempting to find documentation.

Like there's this one whole chapter.  Where she talks about, I can't remember, it's like a, a bank in London where she wanted to go and get these like primary documents that she thought would help her write this research. And the bank is just straight up like, no, we do not give documents. We

was Lloyd's of London, right? Wasn't it? Yes. Yes.

that's what it was. And they were like, no, we're not giving you anything. Obviously in this institution is attempting to hide their Past involves with slavery is why they're refusing to give her these documents. But I really like it for my students, and particularly in a dual credit class, because they're not only going to see these amazing stories of women-led slave revolts, but they're also gonna see the challenges that historians can face in finding these documents, which can really, it can really answer the question like, okay, why are women missing?

Like, why don't we have these stories? Where are they and how can we find them? And then also just. Sometimes the inability to do so. The sad truth that we have institutions that are trying to hide these stories, and I'm hoping it leads to great conversations about how do we get around that? What is it actually like to study history?

Yeah.

Yeah, I do think that's something that's so compelling. I know there was multiple pieces like that, Lloyd's of London, like how they were basically ensuring the slaves on the slave ship. Right. And so I. This powerful idea. And you know, we see this in lots of places in America and American history, and especially in this climate right now, right?

Where we're trying to deny the events that happened and took place. Right? And so I think that's interesting, right? Because this is our, you know, ancestral connection back to England and the colonies and all those things. And they're trying to hide what they were involved in and like, Let the the truth be the truth.

 And I think that's the biggest thing when we talk about, and you can tell me what you think about this. When I think about like equity and social justice, to me it's like, let's focus on the truth. Like it's not, we can't apply to today's evaluation or expectation or social cultural norms to what happened, doesn't make it right.

But at the same time, like ignoring it, we're doomed to. Repeat our history, right? We're not gonna really be able to think about the systems and structures that exist and how to make them better.  Because if we can't go back and look at the history, then how do we know how to make it, make it different, right?

And so, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think about that? I mean, I'm curious  

I. 

Kind of a struggle, kind of frustrating for me in our current climate. Especially I'm a history teacher, so that has been interesting over the last two or three years. Something that really frustrates me in some of these examples of like trying to hide these stories and limit what teachers can talk about in the classroom and kind of limit you know, specific groups of people being talked about.

Something that really frustrates me is I look at my classroom.  And I'm like, but this story applies to maybe 75% of the students in here. So it's just very frustrating when we're choosing what we can teach versus what we can't. But there's students in the classroom that like, but that is their history.

But that does apply to them. But that is what like their past is about. So why is one group of students. Allowed to hear a story that relates to them and another group of students isn't. I just don't, I don't particularly understand. And ob obviously, that argument is oftentimes coming from people not in a classroom.

But I, I don't under, I don't understand how we do the mental gymnastics to make that decision, so I dunno.

Oh, I'm right there with you, right? Like,  Like who's, I always think about this, like when we think about history or books or texts or any of those things, right? Well, we probably talked about this way back when we were in class together, right? Like, I, I'm just thinking about it. I was like, wait a second.

I think we talked about this, but like, whose voice is privileged and whose voice is heard, right. And perspective because, you know,  you and I can experience the same thing. And have a different story and perspective about that, that same event, and both are valuable and important, you know, to the big picture.

So  so I love that this is in this book.





So I love this about the book, right? The juxtaposition of her experience, like you were talking about as a woman, as a researcher with the, the history of it and the, the powerful of the imagery in the graphic novel. I know sometimes people think graphic novels are simpler.

Text, but I, I really feel like they're very complex because they also inquire a lot of inferring or looking at how the artist has also chosen to represent. So you may be able to like, read through the words quickly, but to really dive in is gonna take some more time. So I know you were, have some kind of plan, you have some plans for this dual credit class.

So talk to me a little bit about how you plan on using it with these students. It's very exciting. 

I'm still kind of working through some of the like decisions that I need to make. I know that like I do want to sit down and like read with them, like I want to be there with them in the text. I want to be able to like pause and talk about things. I think that that's really, really important. In terms of like what we're gonna do with the text, I kind of have like two. 

That I might go down. I'm considering even giving students a choice in what they want to do. So I was thinking about, actually this first idea was inspired by my student teacher this past year.

Oh, that's awesome. We love that.

yeah. So my student teacher had found, I think she borrowed it from someone else. Maybe she found this Like virtual museum that you can basically like create.

So it's like a, it's like a Google Slides and like there's all these little like links that take you to all the different rooms and there's different purposes. There's like, you can insert like primary sources, images, things like that. So I'm considering kind of having the conversation with students like, okay, so if this is a topic that is so hidden that we're not seeing, then let's create a virtual museum for it.

So I was kind of considering going that route. And then I had also gotten a really cool, I'll have to send you the website because maybe you can provide it. My assistant pri, my assistant principal, actually found a website that compiles all of Dr. Hall's primary source material. And it has a bunch of lesson plans.

Like it's a whole bunch of stuff already prepared. For teaching Wake. So I could direct students there and have them like use those primary sources as resources for their little virtual museum. So that's one idea that I'm kind of toying with. The other one that I'm kind of to with is just. Hearing their thoughts, like having them write some type of like reflection or maybe create like a reflection song or poem or write a paper, kind of whatever they wanna do with it, but just kind of hearing out their thoughts.

These are, I'm used to teaching freshmen, but these are gonna be juniors and seniors who are receiving college credit. And I kind of wanna push them to. What, what did you actually learn from this? Like, what are you taking away? What are you walking to the next phase of your education with, with this knowledge?

So I don't know. I'm kind of going both ways and I could totally change my mind and do something different because that's 

Well, you know, like, well, that's how it happens, right? And sometimes you start with one thing and you're like, oh wait, that's amazing. Or I'm gonna go this direction. But those are both, those both sound just so amazing. I'm gonna tell you the first thing I love is like just they both have choice involved, right?

So  students I think, provide.  The most enlightening information when we give them some choice around how they express their learning and understanding and connection. Right. So that's, that's amazing. I think the virtual museum sounds amazing. I mean, I almost feel like you could combine them a little bit, right?

Like, Your thoughts around, they're reflecting on this, how does that connect to them and their story and who they are? And then also like, we wanna share this out with others. You almost sounds a little P B L, like, you know, like project, like, here's your question. And we have this text and we're

based learning. Yeah.

Yeah.  A little bit. Don't you think?

Yeah, definitely.

A little bit. A little bit. So the, oh, that's so exciting. How many stu, do you know how many students you're gonna have in the fall?

So it's only a one semester class, so I'm gonna get to do it.  It twice, like first semester and again second semester. And I, I have one class each semester, so that means it have to be, in order for those numbers to work out in like the scheduling of classes, I have to have between 20 and 30 per semester.

So, yeah, I don't know yet. I should be knowing that soon. And I'm a lot of these students, this is like a new class I'm bringing to Bloomington High School. So a lot of these students are students I've already had that are just like, let me get back in the re class. So it'll be a cool experience because it'll be a lot of kids that I already know.

So it'll kind of be like, hit the ground running. They're already with me. They already get my teaching. They already are like, ready to go. So yeah, I, I think it's gonna be a good, a good experience.

I do too. You know, I think that also speaks to when we think about having the opportunity to have these. Really deep and important conversations. It comes back to relationship. Right. And, you know, I've had the privilege of seeing some of that via, you know, Instagram and those kinds of things, like how you build those relationships.

And high school students are like hilarious, right? They just really are. And they, they mature so much from freshman

Mm-hmm. 

But like, You just said like, these are students you've had before and they're wanting to come back. Right. And have this class with you. So I think that's just a huge testimony to you as an educator and how you  value and privilege the relationship with your students because the relationship is the key to  all the things, at least in my, that's in, in in Tamad dean's

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it, even like the opportunity, this class, lemme give a little background. So the opportunity of this class in general, I feel like speaks to the equity piece. You know, we offer AP u s history, which is obviously also a great opportunity at the sophomore level. The amount of students we have though that as.

Freshmen are not ready to, you know, take that AP class are a little bit nervous. AP kind of comes with a stigma. I was like that in high school. I didn't take any AP classes because I was afraid of them. I thought that.  Again, I thought that they were not, like, I thought that I wasn't good enough, like I was not gonna be able to do those classes.

I was gonna fail. I just talked myself into thinking that was not an option for me. So the amount of students that as freshmen are just not ready to make that decision, there's a lot of them. So we end up with a very tracked system of like, you take honors and then you take ap, and then everybody that didn't make that initial decision to do the honors level.

They're just left out of all those opportunities. So the dual credit opportunity is really cool because now as a junior senior, if you're starting to realize, hey, like I didn't challenge myself initially and now I would like to challenge myself and maybe in an environment where you already know the teacher, like the amount of students that have chosen to take this class because they said, Ms, I trust you.

Like, I don't know if I'm ready for a dual credit class, but I trust you. I think that that makes a big difference in the students that we're gonna see having this opportunity for this college level credit. And just the opportunity to have more advanced content presented to them. Like this Wake book we're not talking about, well, not that we're not talking about, but it's not part of the curriculum in our general American history class that they take sophomore year.

So now here's the opportunity once they're ready. So I definitely think that like brings in much more equity of having multiple opportunities for various different students. You're not ready to do AP sophomore year. That's fine. You can do this year, senior year. I just, I, I'm really excited about that opportunity.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so powerful because you know,  Historically marginalized students, right. Are told that's not your, that's not for you. Right? Or they get that message, or like you said, I'm not ready, or I don't wanna take ap. Right? Because you know the thing with the AP too, right? There's a test involved.

There's like, there's a, there's a whole nother level of. I'm gonna call it gatekeeping for advanced placement classes. That isn't quite there for dual credit and like you do your dual credit, you have college credit, right? Like you've done the work and put it in. So I think that's one of the benefits of dual credit, you know, over an AP course.

For, for me. So, but no, that's so exciting, right? Like you have all these opportunities and options and, you know, kudos to District 87 for putting this on the books as an option. We love that. And I, you know, I think it was so exciting too. Yeah. Like,  so I found this book. Because of Kelly. So she was telling you how she found it?

She had posted it in her story, and I was like,  okay, that's my, that's totally my vibe. I'm gonna buy this book. So I went out and bought it like that day. Yay. Amazon.  And  Ruta, and I just, of course, you know, I, you know, I'm an avid reader, so I'm always sharing all the things that I'm reading, but, and then you're like, I'm like, You're like, I wanna teach this class.

And I was like, yes, teach this class.  She was gonna put together a GoFundMe.  She had put it together and then, and then it was gone. I'm like, Hey, where'd it go? 'cause I was about to share this with my people so they could buy these books. So the amazing piece to this is the support you have from administration.

'cause they went and got the funds for you to have these books. And that is like, What we, what we love to see, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

is getting behind

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

opportunities for students. So,

Definitely, yeah. It was my, it was my lead teacher. I took it to him and I'm like, I was ready to like, sell the book. I was ready to like, make my argument and I was like, I really like this. He's like, Kelly, stop. Like if you think it's great, like good, we'll do it. Like let's go for it. And my, I didn't have the best luck with the GoFundMe, so my lead teacher had the amazing idea of reaching out to the organization's called, not In Our Town

Uhhuh.

schools.

And they, and basically my lead teacher, like presented it to them to the, not in our school kind of board or I, I don't know how the group actually functions, but he presented it to them and they were like, yes, we love this. That's great. You just need administration's approval. So then I did take the book to my assistant principal who's also my evaluator, who was also a social studies teacher.

So he obviously wanted to read it. He wanted to look into it, so then he ended up reading it. That's when he found that website with like all of the extra like lesson plans and materials and I'll definitely get that to you.

Yes. Yes. We'll share that out. Yes, for sure.

so everybody was kind of on board and I was really excited about it.

And I think that students are gonna like it too. Mm-hmm.

I think so. I think so. I can't wait to hear how this goes and what you Decide to do with it ex like when you, when you, when you nail that down. So we, are y'all gonna be coming back and talking to Kelly after she teaches the class? Like how it went, what did she do? Lessons learned. I would love to do that in between semesters.

Like what do you, and then, you know, what did you learn and how do you wanna it up for the next semester? 'cause I think that's the most powerful thing too, right? Is. You just always gotta, you just gotta take that next step and try it. Right. Because even if it isn't perfect,  when we're making decisions that are best for students that are focused on social justice and equity, like you really  can't go wrong.

You can just learn and do better. Right. I mean,

absolutely. 

I've been doing this work for,  gosh, 25. 25 years. And I'm always learning new things, new ways of thinking, new ways of trying things from other people. And I think  that's kind of the key. Like who do you,  who do you like listen to and who do you like for you, like, you know, in your journey, like who has been influential for you or what are your thoughts on that? 

I would definitely say like the most influential have been like my influences within academia. So a lot of my professors taking very seriously like the research pieces and the credible sources pieces and the credible information pieces. And you know, when you're looking for what information, like I always start with like a.

Historian's argument. I obviously, I'm lucky to have had a master's degree in history, so I have like a lot of background knowledge there, but I'm always starting with, okay, what do I know is true in the academic world? Just because.  With all of our  current issues, our current media problems, it can be really daunting to figure out like, where do I even go?

Where do I find information? Starting with academic sources is where you have to start. And I've, I've found that a lot of those academic sources, all those academic sources really lead into these opportunities for equity. So yeah, I think that that's  really important.

Yes, yes, for sure. I love that. Go. Go to go to the source, right?

absolutely.

Yes.

is why, you know, historians and, and social studies and history teachers are like, primary source documents are really

Yes,

Like  read them and pay attention. Right. And I, I think, you know, social media is fabulous and it's connected us in ways that  we weren't connected before.

I also think like, how do we  intellectually think about where is that information? Coming from and is it true and right, and is it just right? 

 I have to do that in my classroom all the time. The most common thing this past year was Summer Rems I saw on TikTok last night, and I'd be like, oh my God. And then we'd have to show me the TikTok, okay, where do we actually find this? What does this actually mean? So I did that a lot past school year.

See, but I love that, right? Because we're taking something. That students are using on their everyday life and being like, okay, that's great. You saw that now and, and we do this. Right? Like, you could do that and this, you know, so I, I do think.  Things are getting shared more. We have more voice. Like, I mean, even this podcast, right?

Like we have an opportunity to reach out to people that we normally wouldn't reach out. And I mean, we're not even in the same state, so like,

Right. 

which is amazing, you know? So I love that. I love that. So just thinking about your experience Kind of any, any pro tips or things you wanna share with people who are maybe just getting started on their journey with trying to be more socially just or address equity with their students?

What kinds of things would you like to share with them? I.

I actually kind of wanna bring it back to a point that you just made with like, teachers having to make decisions about curriculum and, you know, decisions of like what sources to use and making sure you're including diversity, you're taking equity into account. One of the problems that I have noticed early in my career  is that there is.

Always something extra to add. There's always writing skills you have to work on. There is always like an extra like diverse source you can bring in. There's always gonna be an extra thing that administration expects you to do. There's always gonna be a new state standard that you have to include. What I have found is that you are never going to do every single thing.

You are never going to bring every single thing in. So you really need to look at your student population and what is going to drive, like their inquiry and their engagement. And I find nine times out of 10 that when I make the choice, Of, okay, like this lesson, I'm gonna make sure that I talk about women led slave roles.

Those are always the lessons that hit it out of the park because my students immediately attach to that and immediately want to know more. So I have never, ever, ever regretted being like, all right, I guess I'm gonna put writing a paragraph on the back burner for this one day, and we're gonna talk about this specific topic instead.

I have never regretted that. I just think especially young teachers like it is gonna feel overwhelming. And it is gonna feel like you're expected to do everything. You also have some choice though, and I always think that going for the d e I approach always works. Always. Mm-hmm.

Oh, yes. Okay. We're just gonna end with that because 100% right. Never regret it. Never regret it. I, I  co-sign that a hundred percent. I have never regretted standing up for students doing what's right for students, engaging with the students. I think if you keep student center, you're always right where you need.

Need to be and seek out those people that, you know, can be your support team and, and reach out.  Reach out to them. So. Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelly for that tidbit. That was perfect and for talking with us today. Looking forward to hearing how this goes with Wake and we will get the link to you all for the resources and check out the book.