Empowering Education: Building Student Awareness and Agency

Join Dr. Tami as she talks with Kate Pole, a high school History teacher from Illinois.  In this thought-provoking episode as we unravel the layers of equity and social justice in education. Discover the inspiring initiatives Kate sponsors at her lab school, breaking barriers in curriculum and championing inclusivity. Whether you're a seasoned educational leader or a passionate teacher, this episode provides actionable strategies for implementing equity practices in your school environment. Tune in for an intentional conversation into the world of equitable education, and revolutionize your approach to teaching. #EquityInEducation #InclusiveClassrooms #SocialJusticeEd Pursuit of Equity

Head to dragonflyrising.org for links to resources and websites mentioned in the episode.

Discovery Call

Transcript

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Dragonfly Rising podcast with me, your host, Dr. Tammy Dean. And I am so excited today we have with us Kate Pohl.  Kate is a high school history teacher from Normal, Illinois. And Kate and I had the opportunity to work together, , a few years ago, maybe seven, eight years ago at this point.

I don't know. Time is a blur. You know, that days go fast.  Or days are slow years are long. I don't know what that's the right saying. Yes, it is So anyway, Kate so excited to have you with us today. 

Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. , and also I almost waved as you introduced me, but once again, remembered that nobody would see that. So, 

That's okay. We can narrate that like I have air quotes, you

there you go. Please note. I am waving at your audience.

I know we, I did that in another episode. We were like snapping for,  something else. And I was like, and the snaps are going so we can narrate that as we go today. So, , as you know, I would, I love each of the guests to the podcast to really talk about.

Their equity journey, because I really do believe, like this is a journey and it's a marathon, and it's not a one-stop. Like, I did this and now here I am. But I would love if you would share a little bit about,  your personal journey around equity work. 

Sure., let's, I mean, it goes back quite a ways.  I think I know this, this could be dangerous. Cut me off.  Well, you know, you never stop learning. So the journey is, is long, but good.

Yes, absolutely.

continues the to this very day to still be learning in this regard. so I grew up in North Dakota.

And I say that only because, , my particular my high school, which was maybe I'm going to guess 1500 people 10th to 12th grade. And very, as you can probably guess Bismarck, North Dakota, it was very white,  pretty conservative. , but there was a large indigenous population, and large, I'm saying that relatively speaking.

, and so in terms of racial minorities, that was the group that, that kind of spoke to me in a, in a visible sense, if that makes any sense. So, for instance, the optics of indigenous students, , in the school who were, of isolated who, who had a higher absence rate than other students who, , at the same time, the, the United Tribes Technical College is like right where I live and they have this huge powwow every year.

So there was also visibility in terms of, you know, some cultural celebrations. So that was something I noticed right away.  But I also didn't have a ton of experience just, with any other sort of racial diversity, , had a little bit of experience with , had some, some gay teachers growing up and that was absolutely amazing.

Unknown, or you were not supposed to talk about it, the, the teacher I'm thinking of in particular, who was one of my favorites.  In fact, I majored in his subject for a year and a half. I did not follow through. It is not a subject I should be teaching, but he.

But he inspired you

He was so wonderful as a teacher that, yeah, that's where I started, and noticing, again, kind of later in life, thinking back of the things that he had to put up with, the silence, the, you know, denial of his own identity, kind of came, became more apparent to me as I got to college, and then I guess the next thing to think about is, so, I, I , actually have an English major, even though I teach history and government now, and I also, I hope they're not listening, but I did not have a good history experience in high school.

, it was a lot of memorizing dates and names and  yeah,

me too. Me too, girl. I used to, you know, it was my least favorite subject. I hated history because of that. Because, , I'm not a memorizer. But once someone, , Like you, to be honest, right? Like, talks about history in this very powerful, meaning, interconnected way, I'm like, oh, this is really fascinating and super cool.

Why didn't we learn it this way? So, you know, I mean, I think that was just, yeah, also, you know, we're of similar age. I just think that was also part of, instruction at the time, unfortunately.

Yeah, really unfortunately. So when I got to undergrad, when I got to my college experience, I went to a small liberal arts school and I had to take a history class as part of, you know, the, a gen ed program. And I remember walking into that room,  it was an 8am class and I didn't even bother getting out of my flannel pajamas, put a baseball cap on.

Sat in the back and I'm a pretty good student, but I just thought, all right, I'll suffer through this. And I think it was two minutes before I had my head perched on the, you know, on my arms, just enthralled by this professor. , so if you're out there, Dr. Mike Mullen, you're my hero, actually I have a, I have a framed picture of he and I, my desk at school.

I still adore this man.

Oh, I love that.

he just made it come alive. And you know what it was is suddenly I didn't know this, but evidently women were involved in history. I had no idea. Right.

Crazy, crazy talk.

Right. Other than maybe you read a textbook and like Cleopatra or Elizabeth Cady's to someone would get like a shout out in the sidebar.

And that's it.

Betsy Ross. She made our flag.

Yes, Betsy Ross

B. Anthony. 

Good one. Absolutely.  So as a student, that's where I kind of came alive and started to really think about equity.  Then, my second teaching job, the first one, I try not to think about it, was not a pleasant experience as a new teacher.  , the second one, so I, I was in Omaha, Nebraska for Sioux Falls, South Dakota, then Omaha, Nebraska.

And then, interestingly enough, I went back to Bismarck and I ended up teaching at the school, the high school that I went to, which boy I never thought I would do. And that's when I really started to see things from a teacher's perspective in terms of our indigenous population. And actually, the, the thing that sticks out most in my mind,  He wasn't even my student, but there was a student in the school, and as far as we all knew, he was the lone openly gay student in this school of about 1, 500 people.

And,  some other students, male students, started a petition to have him kicked out of the locker room because they felt uncomfortable.  It was... Horrifying., actually, this sounds like name dropping and I absolutely don't mean for it to be, I guess this is a book recommendation. So Taylor, Taylor  Broby has recently written the book, Boys in Oil, Growing Up Gay in a Fractured Land, and he went to this high school at the same time that I was teaching there.

So I knew Taylor and he talks about this incident in his book.

Oh, wow. 

Yeah, and how it hit him because he was not open about his sexuality at the time and kind of stood back and observed all of this. So, you know, I wanted to get involved somehow. I was just,  I don't know, it just hurt . And I'm saying that from a position of privilege because I'm not gay, but watching with this, you know, the student had some good friends and had some help, but the most popular students in school were circulating this horrible petition as though their lives were difficult. I remember having a conversation with the principal,  who I had had so much respect for, and he actually said at one point, well, you know, if this particular student could just tone it down a little bit.  And I, I was kind of speechless because I was a pretty young teacher, I just couldn't believe that he didn't recognize.

How alone and scared and  brave and all of those things that this lone student could be.  So what ended up happening, and I wish I could tell you how I don't remember

Hmm.

is a number of students came to me they wanted to form a group.  Oh, I know what happened. Another colleague of mine also got involved and wanted to put together a town hall that had.

It allowed all students, teachers, community members to talk about this, but it would be moderated and put together a panel, including the students with a petition. It was kind of like an, she was, she was basically trying to attempt restorative justice before we had restorative justice, if that makes any sense, right?

Yeah.

hmm. 

It was really well done and we found that after that there were so many students that wanted to continue the conversation, that I started a group called the tolerance legacy project. And can I also just say, this was in the early 2000s. I fully recognize the problem with the word tolerance.  I really do.

But,  you know, I mean, but I think that speaks to an important point, right?  when we learn more and know more, we do better, right? So it's, you know, the intent, the intent at the time, there's grace for that.

really good. The word choice was not. 

Yeah. 

and these students were just wonderful. And what, what seemed to happen is the group became a magnet group for  students who had. Identities that were other, you know, I put that in quotes, uh. That had been othered and just wanted to be together and commune.

And the next thing, you know, we would do  PR campaigns about something. We'd have a coffee house. That was an open mic night. We would, um, it just became a place where students could belong that didn't feel like they belonged. And I'm not going to say it was a huge group, but boy, it felt, it felt good to provide that kind of support for those students.

, it, it, it felt.  Yeah, they, they built the community. Really, they did. I just had a space and, and you know, the, the,  the power that a teacher has that, that you have a stronger voice that I could be the channel for them , and be kind of a protector to say, no, I'm going to protect this space for you guys to be able to talk and do, do what you want to do.

Um,  and this, I'm probably gonna, I'm not gonna get in trouble. It's many, many years have passed. For what it's worth, the student who started the petition needed a letter of recommendation from either an English teacher or a social studies teacher. And I had been both of his, so he did not have anyone to write him a letter of recommendation. 

I'm sure he's very successful in the world and hopefully he has changed , his ways and his values. But I said, sure, I'll write you a letter. You know what the first paragraph is going to be about is what you have done to , this student here.  anyway, And then I, I was quite a thing. And then I, I taught for years and then I quit my job and moved to Illinois because I wanted , by that point I had really honed in on history.

I was mad about it. And I only had a minor. So I went to Illinois State so I could get my master's in history and that was life changing.

mhm,

You know, since I, I didn't do undergrad in history, I just, I had kind of gotten a taste of how great it was. And once I was in grad school, oh my gosh, it was, let's talk about post colonial theory and Marxist theory and feminist theory and historiography, how, the study of how history is written and how different historians using different lenses.

, can elevate different voices and you know what else I, yeah, what I, what else I discovered, I hope I actually knew this before grad school,  it's super charged. This discovery was, it's not just women who were involved in history,  indigenous people, black people, Asians, Asian people, all of them were involved in history.

And who knew,

who knew, who knew there was, more than a Eurocentric perspective on events in the, in the world, it's

It was the best thing ever. Not to mention just the people that I became friends with at grad school. And I realized Illinois state is in the Midwest. It's in the middle of the state and , our community is not huge, but it was certainly much more diverse than any other place I had been to. So, you know, even, even students that I went to grad school with , I remember going to my first quinceanera. I was like, what is this? This is amazing. I have never seen anything like this. I don't understand a word of what is happening right now. And it is beautiful and fascinating. And, , that sounds  so naive, but it was, it was really incredible in so many

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. , 

and then of course, once I took the job at UHI, I was like, Where I currently work, I was first assigned to our freshman program, which is interdisciplinary

Mm hmm.

uh, introduced to my now best friend in the whole wide world, who you've interviewed, Amy Raymond, and,   and she also , Introduced me to all sorts of new ways to think about writing and teaching and being able to collaborate with people in different subject areas on curriculum is about the best thing ever  because you think of you think of things and in whole new ways.

 And I would be remiss if I didn't say I, I also really like to read and.  You know, I could give you a list a mile long. Again, I hesitate to say this because I don't want it to come across as arrogant like, Oh, you, you have to read or else. I just really like it.

Yeah. 

I've come across so many wonderful books for all ages, right?

Some of them are very academic. Some of them are young adult novels. Jason Reynolds, if you're out there

Oh,

uh, I'm single, man. I tried to tweet you once when Twitter was Twitter to ask

released a new book

I'm, I'm a

about Langston Hughes. I know. I'm so excited. I have his whole collection. I'm a fangirl also. So, Jason,  we,

to fight me. 

I just want to talk with him. I want to talk to him about his books, you know.  Oh,

so all

Yes. Hit like Nick Stone, Angie Thomas,, like  Tiffany Jackson. 

It's amazing right and I say in that way, I feel like a lot of my journey has been  thanks to students.  I, I didn't read young adult until I came students and librarians God bless librarians.

The librarians. That's just my plug. Right?

shout out to librarians. I just thought, well, I don't, I'm not built for young adult and I don't, I don't like fantasy and sci fi and realistic fiction that's not academic coming out of grad school and man, was I wrong, man, was I wrong?

It is, there is such good stuff out there and, and there's nothing better than reading with your students to see, you know, that's a, that's a piece of who they are when they share a

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

all of those things, yeah, all of them.

Yeah. That's just amazing, I just love that it's this journey and  that the  opportunities that present itself in, in this journey. Right. Which kind of leads to where you are today. And, you know, going back, I just want to talk about the interdisciplinary part.

Right. Because I, yes, well, one, I mean, full disclosure, y'all like I had the opportunity to collaborate with them on this interdisciplinary team.

you did.

yes, I did back when I was the literacy specialist there at U High. Um, but the power in bridging those connections between. Like, you know, our, our subjects don't exist in the world in isolation,  they are in fact interwoven and the way we've historically set up schools to have content in these silos really does a disservice to getting into the depth and nuance of how different  Pieces of the world influence another world, right?

Like these things were happening in science, which influenced these historical actions  that took place, right?

right.

being able to connect a thread for students is just, it's just a powerful  place to be, like an opportunity. I just think to share with students and.  I don't know, for me, I always feel like, , once you see that, you start to almost naturally continue to bring it in, right?

Oh, yeah.

 I don't know what you think about that.

Oh, absolutely. So even though I no longer teach in our freshman program, , I now, I now teach, mostly upperclassmen.  There, an opportunity arose to teach AP government. I hadn't taken, don't tell anyone this, she said on the podcast, hadn't taken a government

with us.

right.  I hadn't taken a government class since ninth grade.

And an opportunity to teach AP U. S. government came up and I thought, I want to try this. And so , that was a step in order to do it, just scheduling wise, I needed to step out of our freshman program. So I now teach, AP U. S. government, U. S. government, U. S. studies, and an AP comparative government class.

Still adore the freshman program and, and boy, have they...  Rewritten that curriculum again in such a global, culturally responsive way. It's wonderful. What I miss the most is. The daily collaboration, you know, when I want it speaking of literacy or I, you know, I teach lots of writing and all I'd have to do is turn my chair and say, Hey, English teachers, I need some help.

Tammy, I need some help. Or I have this, this text. I really want students to, read, but I know it's too difficult for them. How do I help?  How do I help them? And I still work very hard to reach out to people to make those connections. But I do miss. That they're not two feet away

The ease of

Yeah, the ease of it or

the turn the chair.

you're having lunch and you hear someone talk about what they're teaching or planning and you could just interrupt. Oh my gosh, that sounds great. We're about to do this. How can we connect?, and I just think it's so good for students to see learning becomes so much more authentic and  Even if they walk out of my class and say, well, history is not my favorite, but I'll tell you what I do understand why it's significant.

I do understand why it's

Mm hmm. 

I can only do that if I'm able to make connections to those other disciplines. So yeah, I, I absolutely agree. I, it was. It's so important. I, in fact, administrators, if you're out there listening, please, please, please create more opportunities for your teachers to talk to each other and to work together, right?

They, that we are our best resources and, and we never get the time to do it.

yes, yes, yes, that building in that intentional time. I think that's so important and a very important plug. I'm all here for that culture responsive leadership. Y'all,

yeah, yeah,

it in action, right? Like, you know, because then you also seeing your teachers as an asset and that time as an asset,, and their professional expertise, right?

So, especially in the current climate of, Yeah.  I,  my perception,, we're taking away a lot of the professionalism, um, from teachers and their opportunity to really respond in the way that students need that just kind of nationally as a whole. So, I, I do think that's one of the highlights of, you know, being a lab school, being at University High School is,

yes.

you know, the continued opportunity to refine and engage in best practice, , and for those of you that don't know what a lab school is, essentially, a lab school is connected to a university that prepares, pre service teachers, so it serves as a model and an opportunity for pre service teachers to engage with high quality, Instruction from teachers, not HQ.

I am as like the buzzwords out there, but true, like in depth, critical, critical learning and thinking. So, these teachers put in a lot of work at these lab schools, to support the educators coming out into the field as as new teachers. So,

We try, but I, I should, I should give a shout out to all of my fellow colleagues in out there that don't have the level of freedom I do. So as I'm watching on a national level,  books being banned, which I, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm having so much trouble wrapping my head around it. And a number of those books have been ba that have been banned are books that I teach on a daily basis.

Yeah. That are in my classroom and part of my curriculum. And I, I feel pretty safe in my curriculum and because I'm in that lab school environment, I, I get to teach those things. So yeah, it's, it's wonderful. And I'm, I, I'm, I'm happy to take on this challenge of reinventing curriculum all the time. But in, in lots of ways, I think my colleagues not in lab schools have a harder, they're doing a lot better work, harder work than I am right now.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and you know, the sad part for those of you that may not know, if you're sitting here thinking, yes, we don't like book banning either. Like, I think this is an opportunity to use our, our, our voice and speak out against it because it is, I think the statistic is like the majority of book bans have come in from a group of 11

Yes! Yeah! Yes!

like 80, something like 80 percent of book bans y'all have come from like 11 people.

So I want you to think about. And, and I'll have to check that statistic and I'll, I'll link something on my webpage about this because I think it's just important to realize, there's a tiny group of people  influencing a huge trajectory, but you know,, I also just got to say, because, are starting to rebel against the prolific, excessive  book banning and I am here for it.

I am here for the students. Like let's, yes, students. So right. So you know, you want to think about allyship, this is opportunity educators for you to step into this privilege. Like Kate was just talking about as a, as a. As a teacher, right? You hold you hold more power, , than the students. And I don't know people always think about allyship in that way, but this is a way to do that.

Um, to seek out and support and and use your power to, push back against this small group trying  to limit the things we we read.

Yep. Absolutely.

So I had not intended for us to go there, but I love it because it's so important. It's so important. I do want to talk about because there's a lot of great things happening with what you're doing with equity work with students.

 So I know there's a few of them. And that's super exciting.  So, you are involved with the Black Student Union, the Feminist Club, the Diversity Committee.  Did I miss any?

 I started co-sponsoring not in our schools this year too, but I'm kind of a sub. I, I feel like I'm a placeholder, but loving every second of it so far. So for a, for another colleague who had to take on, more diversity work and it, it was, it was more time consuming than she realized and said, will you help with N I O S?

And I said, you bet. What can I do? Yeah. And I also, I also co-sponsor our, our Amnesty International Group.

Okay. Awesome.

justice is kind of important to me.

You think? You think? Yes. No, but I love it. You know, I love it. So, I would love,  just to hear some more about like, what, What piece is, I don't know, I don't even know if you can do this, like close to your heart. Like what piece do you want to share, with that work that you're doing with, with others? 

gosh, . Okay, all of it. I love all of it. 

I knew that! That's why I was like, I'm going to ask you a very hard question.

Yeah, I love all of it.

I know where your heart is and it's in with all of it. So, I just,

Well, okay, the newest one and maybe this, this, this goes speaks to my own identity. So there's a little bit of selfishness to this is the feminist club is really new and I have waited. And waited and waited because it needs to be student driven, right? I can't do it. It needs, everything needs to come from those students.

And so finally, a couple of students last year said, Ms. Ball, we need a feminist club. I said, we sure do. What can I do to help?

You're like, I've been waiting for this moment. 

right.  So they're, they're very new. They're just kind of getting up and running. Um,  But like I said, it connects to my own identity. I guess I'm excited about it because that is, that is my lived experience, right?

I am a white. Cisgender straight woman. And so in many, many circumstances, I have privilege and I understand that, but I'm also single, unmarried 47 and happy. And, and most people, not most, I'm sorry. That's a, that's an overgeneralization, but there. There are still a fair amount of people, even in my professional circles, who  even if they don't want to acknowledge it out loud, think that there's some sort of failure in that.

And, and I don't feel that way. Um, I'm also

societal

right, right.

norms, stereotypes, expectations.

yeah, and I'm also pretty confident. And even though I will always have things to learn, always, uh, read more books, learn from my colleagues. I think I'm fairly intelligent and I'm fairly good at what I do and I, I don't like to, and I have strong opinions and I think they're informed opinions.

But when you are a woman who stands up with your formal informed, excuse me, opinions, and you're willing to speak up and I'm, I'm sure you've never heard this before. You are aggressive. You're not assertive. You're not confident. You're not intelligent. You're aggressive.

aggressive. I'm assertive. I'm not humble. Could I humble myself?

Right. Yes. Yes.

me, like, would you say that to a man?

Right. Exactly.

you want me to be less smart.

Right. And by the way,  one of my This has been years and years and years, but a person I considered one of my closest friends when I went to grad school, I went back to North Dakota to visit  and  he and a number of others who I was, I was so excited to tell them about the experiences I was having.

I was just so excited. So I was home for a holiday break. And the first question they asked was, have you met him yet?  I said, and I knew what they were asking, right? I knew what they were asking. And I thought, don't just, just, just ignore it  and start talking about a class that you like, or a professor or what Illinois is like, you know, I had been to Illinois or Chicago.

I had never been there until I moved here  and I tried to, to. Talk past it and one of them actually put his hand on my hand and said, it's okay. It'll happen. You'll meet him. I thought, do you really think that's what I'm going to school for? Um, and that was, that was followed

That's why any good girl goes to school to meet her future husband.

Right. But if I, I am not kidding.

It then went further. I tried to change the subject and out of, I mean, just out of left field. I, uh, he said to me, well, you know, if you could just dumb it down a little, you know, I think you'd stand a better chance. I know. Right. Like learning is so much a part of my identity. I thought, are you kidding?

You've just told me to close down some of my identity to, to meet a man. Like, what are you doing? I, it was,

Not that the man should respect and love and honor that part about you like you you need to change who you are

Yeah, it was

that's intimidating to us men

That's exactly what the message was. I had come across it in grad school with some good friends. I had come across it teaching. I should also add, by the way, my parents have been happily married for like 54 years, my brother for like 26 or 7.

I have lots of happily married people in my life, so this is not me railing against marriage. It's just,  you can, you can be happy as a woman pursuing education as well. And what I've found as a high school teacher, sorry, I'm talking way too much about myself, but what I've found as a high school teacher,  and I, I mean, we know this there, there's research behind this, that when young women get to be about eighth or ninth grade, I think it's actually younger these days.

They start to shut down in the classroom, um, they're experiencing puberty, suddenly being smart, participating, being interested in class is, is social suicide. And so they really start to close in, um, and it, it just killed me. So I spend lots of my time trying to model for young women in my class.  Number one, you don't need to apologize when you're going to make a comment, right?

Every single comment starts with, Oh, I'm, I'm sorry, but let, let me hedge. I just,  this is probably wrong, but no, let's not do that. No, let's not. I do need you to be informed. And if you are wrong, well, sure. Then you need to back up and rethink. , where you're coming from. Of course you do. We all do. Um, and so, that, that was a long answer to say I'm very excited about this feminist club.

You should hear some of their ideas. Ugh, teenagers are just the best. So,

they're, they get a bad rap too. Uh, you know,

incredible. Right. They're just incredible. They're just these little sponges. And I realize, and people my age, our age, I'm going to put you in this category too,

we're the same age.

right, we, we get  close minded. We get set in our ways.

And even though teenagers struggle to grapple with some of these things. They are willing to grapple, right? So, their frustration to me and even sometimes their immaturity, it's even kind of hopeful that, they're really struggling with something new. And that's, that's a pretty exciting thing to watch.

Um, so at our, you should have seen our first meeting this year. Uh, and I, I had nothing to do with this. I just sat and enjoyed the show.  Our president and her, her officers. Did a four corners activity and it was just, it was supposed to be an icebreaker to welcome in, you know, you've got freshmen and seniors and everybody's a little nervous.

And what are we here for? And so it was, I strongly agree, agree, disagree, strongly, disagree, go to the corner, right? The first question is like a hot dog is a sandwich, very silly. Pineapple belongs on pizza. And then she scaffolds. She didn't know that's what she was doing. But her next question was, she said, this one's just going to be.

No, I think it was four corners. She said, um, I have chosen to not to participate in activities because of my gender and every single person in the room. They all kind of watched each other and all of them went to agree every single one. And she went, okay.  Is anybody willing to share? And the next thing you knew, you know, that the upperclassmen went first and then the freshmen really started to open up and it was the most incredible experience.

Um, and, and they kept going from there talking about, you know, I,  yes, I haven't joined this, um, just to, I'll skip ahead. So here are some of their goals based off of this activity,  they want to help each other  engage in what have typically been male spaces. So for instance, in a classroom discussion, one, one young woman said, well, I was in a small group with a bunch of guys and.

Every time I'd bring up an idea, they'd kind of dismiss me, and then, again, I tried not to laugh because you and I know this experience so well. She said, and then, two minutes later, one of the guys would say what I just said, and everybody thought it was a great idea! 

Oh, 

Right?

I think every  woman may,  I don't know if that's too grandiose to say every

I

but maybe not. Every woman's probably experienced that. I mean, I would say, you know, at least as middle aged women for sure.

right. So then they started to strategize. Okay, what can we do for each other in a classroom to elevate women's voices? Or how can we help you? And then it was, , I wanted to go to the weight room. I'm nervous. All right ,let's have the feminist club go to the weight room and let's all go lift weights and, and,

Mm hmm.

you know, I want to go change a tire.

 They also want to do things like learn about  , women, female role models. Um, they're very, very,  , particular about about recognizing intersectionality. So,

Okay.

you know, which was, yeah, it was really great. So, so this president said,  let's look at some ground rules as we have discussion. If you are a woman, if you say you are a woman, you are a woman.

This is not up for discussion, right? Like I, it was great. She was, and we do have some transgender students in this group. And she said,, I recognize she's white as well. And she said, I recognize that black women's experiences may be different than my own.

Mm

We need to talk about that too. We need to make space for all of those conversations again.

I, I just provide the space. I'm just sitting in the back of the room trying not to jump into the conversation because it's so great.

Can we make a grown woman feminist club

Yes! I'm in! Let's start it right now!

let's get a,  you know, women educators or just, you know, women, feminist club because, you know,  I think about this because even though, like, education is historically a female dominated space, the males  I don't even know how I want to say this.

It seems that the people given the eventual power, if you will,  are males more often than females, right? Like so the males that are in there, right? So you're,  so even in a predominantly female,   profession,

It's amazing. It's amazing how patriarchy works. Right. Yeah. 

you know, this, I, wow, these kids like,  oh,

They're amazing.

heart,

Oh, yeah, and even better, um, , Soo Jung Han, who's a psychologist, this is one of the, one of many great benefits of working through a university, so she's in the psychology department, and they have started something called the Body Project. , which is to help, it was initially targeted women, and I think it's gone beyond that, and, to go after,  oh gosh, everything from media stereotypes, and media messaging, and um, about body type, and about body image, and, and I think it was initially for eating disorders, but it is extended well beyond that, and you go through this training,  They're training students.

So students learn, for instance, and they,, and I, Amy Raymond, who I had mentioned earlier, she and I are the faculty sponsors again, we really just sit in the back. Well, we're told by the professor, you guys need to keep quiet. This is for the kids, not you. 'cause we can't , we can't not jump in. Um, Yeah, but they'll talk about like how can you change the script so let's say I'm in the bathroom and a young woman.

I always think of the scene from Mean Girls, where they're all looking in the mirror, and the first one, yeah I, my pores are too big my this is this and they all look at Lindsay Lohan's character like. What do you hate about yourself? You, that's, that's how you can be part of our fellowship of women. And so one of the things that you would do in Body Project is, okay, how do I, how do I stop that script?

How do I interrupt that when I hear fellow students saying such negative things about themselves? Um, it, it, it's incredible, this training. I'm just giving you one tiny example of it, but our feminist club has started to, uh, really move into the, the Body Project  sphere as well to, uh, uh, spread the good word, if you will.

So it's just really, really exciting to watch.  it just makes me really happy.

I love that. I love that. And, to me, it's also  when you think of women,  gosh, I don't even know how I want to say this, like, doing life differently than society thinks is acceptable for women, right?  That, to me, is also a form of representation, right,  I always come back to when we show up as our whole self  and our powerful self,  we provide the opportunity and space for someone else to come in and show up as their whole self

Yeah. Exactly.

about our whole self. 

Oh, that's it.

You know, and I think we owe that to students. Right. And it and I and I say that like it's not scary sometimes to do that.  I think it is  and how do you think about what is that one thing or like what is that one next thing that I can do? It doesn't have to be a huge thing.

Mm hmm. 

 It it's enough to show and start this This journey or continue this journey if you've started this journey,  I think that's just always a point of reflection Like how am I showing up as my whole true self?

And how am I making space for the students or the educators? Around me if you're an educator leader like to show up and be there their whole true self.

yeah, I,  I think that's one of the most important things I do, that is so well said, is,  and I also agree with you that that is a scary thing to do, you know, I'm not stupid, I, I'm,  sometimes, um, even though I think it's improved dramatically, and I also have some pretty wonderful male allies in my life, many, as a matter of fact, But I also know that when I speak up, there are certain people in a, in a room faculty that are going to roll their eyes and say, there she goes again.

Um, there she is being aggressive. They're not going to say it to me, but I also know that they're probably not going to take seriously the things that I have to say and.  I have to be okay with that. It's not fair that I have to be okay with that, but my other option is to be quiet and that is not an option that I am willing to embrace. 

Yeah.

but, but again, to your point, it's scary. And that's the model I want to provide for my female colleagues. It's the model I want to provide for my students, but I'm I mean, come on, let's be honest here. That doesn't mean that there haven't been nights that I come home and fall apart.  You know, I'm going to try to not do it in front of the students, but that doesn't mean that it's always easy to do. 

So,

absolutely. Absolutely. And I, and I would say just even for myself, right? Even  having historically been like, just me, right? And like,  Kind of willing to speak when others wouldn't speak and I just,  it's just innately a part of who I am. Like I can't not speak, but I have found, you know, just,  you know, I,  I say this to, to share, I guess, and be vulnerable with other people that may be thinking this, right?

Like where I'm like, maybe this time I'm just going to start, I'm just going to be quiet. I'm just going to keep my mouth. Close like because or I have to find or I find myself preemptively  explaining intent. Like I need you to understand that my questioning my questioning or my directness isn't.

Negative. It's coming from a place of wanting to know and understand and question and and collaborate, but because I am a woman and then on top of that,  you know, a minority woman,  not just a woman, right? In an equity space, like the person, like dealing with all of those, those  Nuances and intersectionality of experience, right? 

I find myself having to preemptively do that, and I don't like that. Because I know,  if I were a man, and I'm really, we're really not trying to bash on you men, we appreciate you, but it's like, it is, it's true, right? I, I really promise I'm not, I, I love, you know, adore you, 

Yes. Oh, sure.

our allies, absolutely.

But I, you know, I'm thinking from a society perspective, if I were a man, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have to,  I wouldn't have to do that.

Yes. Right. And to, to your point,  again, that we're not here to men bash, it's more about this kind of awareness campaign. Right. Um, so I gotta give my dad a shout out. So he, I, have you seen the Barbie movie?

Oh, absolutely,

Okay. Thank you. I 

Hey, Barbie! 

love it.  I adore it. Um, for many, many reasons. And my 76 year old dad, he, first, my mom went with a bunch of her girlfriends and I had raved about it. And, , and he said, I think I need to see it. And, and they don't live here, but afterwards he, my mom took him and I said, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And I, I need to not. 

Be judgmental of my father who I have a really good relationship with if he doesn't love it. And I wish I could remember the exact message, but I texted him afterwards. I waited 24 hours. It was killing me. I knew when the movie ended and I was like, wait for him. Don't be pushy.  And  the next morning I said, well. 

I said, you can be honest. It's okay. We were just texting.

Um, um, mhm,

you think? And again, I'm paraphrasing. He said it more articulately than I'm going to, but he said,  I feel like I went to somebody else's religious service that I went into a different cultural space. That was not my own.  I just wasn't aware he said it was very cerebral.

I guess I just didn't know that women were experiencing things in that way. Um, and in that way, I, you know, I, I think there's, there's something I'll never be able to connect with you on, but I'm really glad. That I'm, I got that two hours of perspective, and I wrote him back and I said, Dad, you could not have given me a better response than you just did.

I was like, that's what I needed you to see is, you know, no, maybe you can't experience this in the way that I do. But, but now  it's, it's been made visible to you in this particular way. Moment and like, that's it. Right. That's what my feminist club girls want to do is make things visible. That's what I want to do in a faculty meeting is make things visible.

Um, , and to your point about  thinking so clearly about  scripting your intent before you make a comment. Oh, my gosh. Can I relate to that? I, I.  I had a meeting with a couple of guys that were working on a project and I adore both of them. They're both excellent educators,  but they have been overlooking some things that have been,   disconcerting to some of my female colleagues.

And so they, we were going to meet and I needed to have a, I needed to make them aware of this. I think I practiced that conversation for about two hours before I went into that meeting. Thinking how can I politely deliver this message? And by the way, they took it really well

Yeah,

and have said, please keep doing this.

Um, we, we needed to know this. This is great. But, uh, you know, it's just awareness. That's that's how privilege works. It's that,  absence of inconvenience, uh, and I'm, I'm quoting, that is not me, I'm forgetting, I can see his face and I'm forgetting a scholar that said that, but just things I don't have to think about and so I don't see them, , and that's it, that's what all of this is about, is such, that's something that students are also very capable of, is seeing something  that they didn't see before.

Yeah,

That's all we can do, that's all we can do.

yeah, absolutely.  Wow  



 Wow. What an amazing conversation so far, we have Cade. that brings us to our time though for. Today's episode. So we're going to go ahead and wrap up. I want to thank you, Kate. For joining me today and sharing with us about your equity journey and the work you're doing with the students that you hi. And the amazing things that these students are doing within the feminists clubs. 

 Listeners, I'm going to encourage you, please go check out the website. Website. I have links there for the resources. Does that we mentioned today. As well as the. The the books. , we will continue our conversation with Kate in our next episode,  diving a little bit deeper into planning around history and history instruction as it relates to equity. So I want to thank you all for joining. In and listening today 

 Please remember to like share subscribe and let other educators know about what We're talking about  i encourage you. you to Please go out use your. your voice today and hit me up Uh, On instagram or on facebook and let me know what you want to hear more about  Thank you all and have a Great day