Empowering Equity: Scripted Curriculum Disrupts Culturally Responsive Literacy Learning

In this episode, Dr. Tami talks with Dr. Katrena Leininger, a literacy professor from UW-Oshkosh. Join them as they delve into the heart of education and how current initiatives such as the SOR disrupt opportunities for culturally responsive teaching.  Discover the transformative power of building relationships, the continuous journey of teacher preparation, and the importance of empowering educators. Uncover insights into the challenges teachers face, the need for a cultural shift in education, and the hope for positive changes. Tune in to explore the magic of teaching and the collective efforts driving impactful shifts in learning. This is a must-listen for K-12 educators passionate about fostering equity in education.

Discovery Call

Transcript

Tami: 0:32

Hello and welcome everyone to another edition of the Dragonfly Rising podcast with your host, me, Dr. Tammy Dean. I am so excited. Today we have with us Dr. katrina. Katrina is an Assistant Professor of Literacy and Language at UW Oshkosh. Apologies if I say that wrong, Oshkoshians. Is that a thing? Is that what they're called? I don't know.

Katrena: 0:54

sure.

Tami: 0:55

Yeah. So anyway, we are very excited to have her with us today. We're going to be doing having some conversation around a little, little controversial topic, SOR and literacy learning. But really important for us to be thinking about, how we're, we're thinking about literacy learning and With students both pre service and the kids in the classroom. So welcome Katrina. Great to have you here today

Katrena: 1:18

Thank you for having me.

Tami: 1:20

so as you know I always like to start with tell me a little bit about your equity journey. Like what does that look like for you? You know in your in your marathon because I always say it's a marathon not a sprint.

Katrena: 1:33

well, first thing I would say is I'm nearly not done, of course, because it's it's definitely a journey., I feel like,,a lot of it for me is just trying to be aware of what's going on in the back of my mind sometimes. And the things I think. And you, you know, they just come up in your head and you're like, Oh, I can't believe I just thought that, but it's there, you know, and you have to really recognize it and see it for what it is, as a professor of teacher candidates who are going to go out there. And many of them have come from very small towns in Wisconsin. A lot of times they'll say things like, well, there is no diversity in my town.

Tami: 2:14

Mm

Katrena: 2:14

so. we talk a lot about, like, there's more to diversity than race, obviously, and so I, I feel like, for me, as a, you know, white girl from Texas, that I really do have to think hard about the things that I'm saying and thinking and trying to make it, um, easy for young teachers, or not yet teachers, to that it's not about, I don't know, these days it feels like so many people go to guilt, and it's not about that at all, I don't feel like, right? I feel like it's about, the future and going forward, the present and the future, I guess, and going forward, rather than, and learning from the past, but not, I don't, I don't know. That as teachers, we have to, take on any guilt for what's happened in the past, but we need to learn about it. We need to know it's there, and that it's still there, and that we have to watch for it, and be careful about what we say and do.

Tami: 3:21

Yeah. That's a really powerful point because I agree with you, right? There is a lot of discourse out in all the world and in the spaces around, why do I need to feel guilty about X, Y, or Z that happened in the past? So that makes a lot of sense. What I'm hearing you say is it's more about awareness. It's awareness of self and awareness of actual history and current events. Is that kind of

Katrena: 3:52

Yes, but I feel like, like, one of the dissipations that we have, which I think could be potentially a little bit nebulous, especially for young teachers, with not a lot of experience, is that they demonstrate an awareness that our identity, their identity. And their culture, as well as the students in front of them, their identities and their cultures are going to impact teaching and learning. And so that isn't necessarily like pet and dry. Like, are you dressing professionally as a disposition? Right? And so helping them to think about what are we, some examples and non examples of of that, how, how do you show that you're aware that your personal identity and culture is going to affect the way you teach?

Tami: 4:40

mm hmm,

Katrena: 4:41

Let me, let me give you an example. It's not really about equity. So say you think you're bad at math. I'm terrible at math. That's an identity you have. That's going to affect the way you teach math, right? So helping them to see that there we hold a lot of identities in ourselves and that those identities are going to affect the way we teach and maybe even the way we think kids will learn. And then on the opposite side of that, you've got 20, 30 kids in front of you that all have different identities and cultures. And so it's going to affect the way it happens. And I think that's where, the current science of reading movement, troubles me. Because we're moving more and more and more towards scripted, programmatic. Ways of teaching reading, which completely strips out the differences in teachers, the differences and children and kids.

Tami: 5:38

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 5:39

that's where my mind has been going lately with equity, especially since I'm kind of immersed in the early literacy

Tami: 5:48

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that that's an important conversation That isn't happening a lot around the science of reading right you you see a lot of things around They need to have these explicit skills taught so they actually know they're not guessing You know, and there are a lot of people that are not literacy experts out there sharing content as if they are literacy experts, right? Because no literacy professional wants students to just randomly

Katrena: 6:31

exactly. Yes, it's, it's a really, it's a really strange, um, accusation for sure.

Tami: 6:37

yeah, yeah. So, I want to talk a little bit more about this, right? Like, how scripted curriculum basically strips the ability to build community and connection and really meets Students. So I would love to hear more about, like, your thoughts around that and if there are things you're doing to kind of counter that narrative.

Katrena: 7:02

Right, I guess, to kind of back up a minute, it feels like for the last decade or two, we have spent a lot of time on assessment in education, how important formative assessment is and how we should Converge on the work Um, you know, this backward design kind of thing where we should know our students, uh, strengths and needs really well, and then build our, our lessons and teaching from that, and then assess them again to make sure they're getting it. Right. So, and then all of a sudden, and I don't, and honestly, I don't care if we're talking about units of study, Lucy Calkins units of study, Or some branded, social media version of science reading program, programs, period. All of a sudden we're inundated with these programs and administrators are saying, teach them to fidelity.

Tami: 7:57

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 8:01

to me, I don't understand why they don't see the mismatch. If we're going to spend all this time doing, um, common assessments. And progress monitoring to make sure kids are understanding what they're learning. Why are we doing all of that? If at the same time we're supposed to be doing programs with fidelity, it doesn't seem like it matches because you're not really assessing. Are you assessing the children anymore or just whether or not you've done the program right? Um, so. It, it turns it into this one size fits all thing, and, if you haven't been doing the program right, or with fidelity, then it's the teacher's fault. In my opinion, what we should be doing is following the children in front of us. So, it's really hard for me because I, I come from a background that if something isn't going right with my teaching, then I am the one who needs to change.

Tami: 9:01

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 9:02

I am the one who needs to make adjustments. And so that's what I'm trying to instill in my pre service teachers that we have to know our children really well. If it's not going well, then what are you going to do about it? If you figure out that they don't have fundamental awareness, Great. Now, what are you going to do about it? And so it's really hard for me to see the teachers that I'm, or pre service teachers that I'm teaching go into situations where they're hidden in a box. And they don't get to be creative. They don't get to think about the kids in front of them. Um, and interestingly, even as very young teachers, they're coming back to me and saying it's not working. The kids aren't engaged. they're not getting it, they're getting behind, and it's like if they can see it, why can't more experienced people see that?

Tami: 9:55

Yeah. I, I have heard that as well. Um, you know, during when I was, you know, a professor just not that long ago, really, at this point, I don't even, four years ago. same thing, right? Teaching literacy methods courses. And how do we think about that? And they are seeing it, and I have to believe the educators in front of the students see it and know it, right? Because I feel like when I talk with educators, they are frustrated, they're tired, we are over assessing, right? So assessment has a purpose, but when we're just assessing to be assessing, and even if the student doesn't really need an assessment. Yet, because we're still in the process of learning, and we know that I have to do this assessment to check off a box.

Katrena: 10:52

Mm hmm.

Tami: 10:54

so and I'm rambling a little bit here, but I just think about the professionalism that's allowed to teachers. Right? Or not. Like, no one tells a doctor,

Katrena: 11:07

Mm hmm.

Tami: 11:08

Oh, you need to diagnose your patient.

Katrena: 11:11

Every two weeks.

Tami: 11:13

Right? Or you have to follow this prescripted way to diagnose them with fidelity.

Katrena: 11:20

Mm hmm.

Tami: 11:21

They are able to draw from their professional experience a variety of resource, their colleagues, you know, all of these places. To then get to what is the best solution for their, their patient and in some ways like students are like that because not all patients are the same and not all students in your classroom are the same.

Katrena: 11:43

I feel like, and that's the thing, is I don't want to, leave an impression that I also, I agreed with the big assessment movement, because I actually didn't. I mean, I feel like we, yes. We should be constantly assessing and that means observing being a really good kid watcher and knowing what you're looking for and knowing how different ways to go at it. I think it was, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't want to. take somebody else's analogy, but I, I heard an analogy that it's like quilting. So I'll take it, but it's not mine originally. So quilting, like you're quilting together,, in, in only an expert can do that. Um, and in, in some ways I feel like. we have too much money in education, or maybe not too much, but it's going to the wrong places. So we spend all the money on these programs, on these kits, on these things that are not, professionally developing our teachers and helping them to be experts that don't really need. A kit, right? I taught for a long time and we had things like that and I would pick and choose from it. It was a tool rather than my Bible. And, um, and sure, I, there were kids that I didn't make the progress I wanted them to make and I still to this day wish I could have figured them out. Right. But, I know that the majority of them, I got to the majority of them and taught them how to read. I can't help but think that it's not because of some curriculum I had, because I didn't really, it was because I learned enough about how kids learn. That I could figure it out with the tools that I had, and at the time, we had more autonomy, I feel like,

Tami: 13:40

Yeah.

Katrena: 13:41

To make the expert decisions, yeah, it's really, it's a, it's a tricky, it's very tricky, but I know, what I do know is that it's really hard to follow the children in front of you if you're using a script, and you're leaving kids behind that aren't keeping up, then you're, we're just gonna end up in the, Exact same place that they think we are now the, the, the science reading people

Tami: 14:09

Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, and it, it, I think it leads to disproportionality, right? Because if you're following a script, then again, you're not attending to the diversity and nuance of, of the students. so I agree. We're going to end up kind of back, I don't even know what's back, right? But we're going to end up in a place we don't want to be.

Katrena: 14:30

Well, and, and, and, you know, and I'm sure you've talked about this before. It there is a huge movement to get rid of public education and get rid of higher education, right? So it's I feel like it's all part and parcel. It's all meant to undermine anything that we're doing and reading is just the 1st step, unfortunately, but they don't no one knows exactly what we're doing, obviously. Right.

Tami: 15:02

Know, we're humans. There's, there's, there's a humanity. part, right? And, you know, to me, education is in the business of people.

Katrena: 15:12

Not in the business of business. Right. Yeah. And that's what I think so many people don't understand.

Tami: 15:18

yeah. And, and people are just such an amazing, diverse group of Knowledge and experience and even a person with the same race, ethnicity, whatever, is not the same, like you can't make that assumption as you, right? Like that's cultural, you know, the cultural competence of

Katrena: 15:43

Mm

Tami: 15:43

Um,

Katrena: 15:44

And even five year olds are like that.

Tami: 15:47

absolutely.

Katrena: 15:48

Every single five year old is different and and unique and just a kaleidoscope of of experiences and in Right. We and we can't tap into that with scripted programs.

Tami: 16:02

No, no, and This may be a little off topic, but this

Katrena: 16:06

It's okay.

Tami: 16:07

me think back, this is making me think back, like, it is, the freedom that we used to have, so, uh, I'm going to date myself, so I was student teaching in 1998, okay, so,

Katrena: 16:16

I won't tell you what I was.

Tami: 16:18

1998, and, Just thinking about, so I was student teaching in first grade at the time, and when I think about, I'm going to move into like, I also think about scripted curriculum right now, and I'm thinking about child development and the push that I've seen for expectation of reading skills at younger and younger ages, even though the, the range of when that acquisition child developmentally wise can happen is broader than what's currently taking place in those movements.

Katrena: 17:00

Okay. So when I first started teaching, I taught in a bilingual classroom. So a lot of ways, that's probably why they left me alone because they didn't know. To do anyway with kids learning to read in Spanish and English. Um, but, definitely we did not expect kindergarteners to read like middle first graders and we definitely were not labeling five year olds as dyslexic. Or even special in special education, we were not doing that. And now we are, we're not even giving them a chance for a good first instruction for just immediately labeling them. And I don't blame teachers for that. I don't blame. I don't blame administrators for that. I frankly, I blame high stakes testing. And that's when it started. It started when we, had to test to get an A or B or C or an F and, um, whether or not we got funding and, and we completely stripped the kids out of the equation. Really? It

Tami: 18:10

Oh, mm

Katrena: 18:12

It's not even about them. It's about whether or not. Your school has enough scores. You know, the last elementary school I worked in, was in a higher socioeconomic and I would say at least half of the kids were not in the classroom during the high stakes testing days. They were in little small groups or being modified in some way. And to me, it's like, If you had to do that much finagling to get the scores you want, I'm not sure it's a very valid test,

Tami: 18:49

Well,

Katrena: 18:50

right?

Tami: 18:50

you know, I mean, I feel like we could have a whole episode

Katrena: 18:53

Oh, yeah.

Tami: 18:54

testing, right? Because, and even, like, the, the grade level of the text and, like, all, all, all the

Katrena: 19:00

inequitable.

Tami: 19:01

Well, and then the move to have it on, it's all digital versus like in print and like for certain age groups, like, oh, we could go down a whole rabbit hole, but I, I, I agree. I do think it's with high stakes testing, because if we come back to what we said before, like assessment, assessment has gotten a bad name. Assessment isn't bad. Assessment is good. It provides information,

Katrena: 19:23

Mm

Tami: 19:23

right? But we have honed in on one type of information because it's the easiest. Easiest in quotes, right? Like easiest to, and it's that quantitative number where really, and I, and I can't, oh my gosh, I can't remember where I saw this, but there's like a, you know, this triangle circles of assessment data, right? So the quantitative piece, you know, and the, the qualitative piece, right? The observation piece, like the performance piece, all of these. Things overlap to get to the answer, but not just a one data poll in this one moment, because Lord knows, none of us have had a bad day and not performed well on that day, right? The expectations we have on young humans, so the children in our schools to do things that adults, honestly. Can't do just blows my mind.

Katrena: 20:29

Yes. Yes. And I am now teaching those kids. So they're in college now,

Tami: 20:37

Yes

Katrena: 20:38

and they are terrified of tests. Mm hmm. They are, they all have test anxiety and, and really for the majority of them, there's no reason for them to, it's not because they inherently are bad at tests, it's because they have been taught they are bad at tests. And, how many of us in all good intentions have said, well, you're just a bad test taker to try to help the student feel better, but that is another piece of their identity.

Tami: 21:22

Yeah

Katrena: 21:23

um, and I mean, I, some of the things they have been through, Tammy, you know, we know it from the outside, but, you know, all of the, the, shooter drills, and I mean, since, so my, your, our kids are the same age as the kids I teach, right, our personal children, and we know that they've been going through shooter drills, and they've been going through high stakes testing since they were babies, or since they went to school, and Right. And these are the kids that are now young adults.

Tami: 21:54

Yeah. Yeah, and I could see like when I was in higher ed preparing These pre service teachers for I don't know how many years I did. I did it for a number of years. Oh my gosh I can't do math like 10 years or something like that I could notice as the years went on The change and shift once we started moving into the high stakes testing era right because the compliance Right. So I imagine that makes it more challenging to to push back against the grain when you have gone through school in such a compliance type, um, process to push back, even though you're seeing it, like, think there's a fear. of using your voice against what we know to be right and best for kids.

Katrena: 22:47

so yeah, to kind of get back on topic, I feel like that is such a strong piece of their identity, that compliance piece that black, it's almost, it's a black and white, like kind of, This is, this is the way things are. They're not. And so when it takes a while, and luckily, I mean, I'm in a position where I see the same students in many courses. I've had four things. I've had some for four courses,

Tami: 23:16

that's the best.

Katrena: 23:18

but it is actually the best because I can, we can whittle away things together. It's not like I'm an expert on everything. Heck, I have things to learn about literacy and I've been doing that a long time. But I feel like we can kind of like tease out things together, um, when I have more time with them and almost like break some of that apart, that kind of compliance part apart and, um, compliance piece apart is like, cause even When they're writing lesson plans, they want to do it. Right. Right. And so they get, and again, back from the beginning, I am like, it's no programs for it's not I don't care whose names in front of them, but they'll get like an interactive read aloud. You know, F and P, um, little, with the book inside from their, their co operating teacher, and you have to do this interactive read aloud. And it totally strips away any of their creativity, any of the things that we're talking about in all of our classes, not just literacy classes, about culturally responsive teaching. It strips it all away. Because it's like you, they are having to fight back from the scripted curriculum in order to think outside the box, and it makes me feel sorry for them because I know they have a lot of creativity, but it makes me feel very sorry for the students in front of them, because in the name of making it simple, it's making it harder for the kids to learn. I go and watch student teachers. observe student teachers and the kids, the amount of kids are disengaged and it's not the teacher. It's the thing. It's the, it's the curriculum, that they are reading.

Tami: 25:03

Yes. Well, and I think that's the jump in these behaviors. Like we keep talking about like this, these new. You're laughing because you're like, yes, like behaviors that we're seeing. And like, we're not, we're seeing behaviors we've never seen before. That's because I'm sorry. I'm just going to say it. The instruction we're asking teachers to do is boring as shit. It is

Katrena: 25:26

it's either boring or it's too hard.

Tami: 25:28

or it's too easy. Or, you know,

Katrena: 25:31

They're so it's, the kids are, are yelling at us. They're trying to tell us that we are doing it wrong

Tami: 25:39

like, notice me, notice me.

Katrena: 25:41

and it's not so some of it I think is yes they're completely bored they're completely bored so easy and it's completely bored and some of it is they're completely frustrated. You know, we're asking them to read like a first grader in kindergarten instead of letting them learn like a five year old should learn, and so they are, it's like building up in them until they cannot, and they don't know how to describe what's

Tami: 26:09

Oh yeah. They don't have the verbal capacity to describe those emotions. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm.

Katrena: 26:15

and yeah, so, and that's the thing that is really hard to teach. I feel like as a, as a teacher educator, I Is I can tell them all these things, but when somebody is throwing, if a six year old is throwing chairs at you, how, how, how, what do you do? Right? And, and so it's really hard to prepare them for those kinds of things, that I know are out there. when I feel like the solution is so much bigger than, let me give you a classroom management tip. You know what I mean?

Tami: 26:50

Yes. And you know, I also think like people when they hear that, they also think like, oh, now education is a song and dance and I'm performing for my students and I, and that's not what it is either. Right. The authenticity of bringing your humanity to engage with the humanity of the bodies in front of you. is the piece that like, that's challenged in

Katrena: 27:15

We have forgotten why. why we teach kids to read and write in the first place.

Tami: 27:21

Yes. Mm

Katrena: 27:22

so they, it's all siloed, like here's our shared reading time, here's our writing time, here's our, and it's nothing to do with what they want to learn about, you know, so it's not, they're not learning to read and write for a purpose. I really want to learn more about this or there's no inquiry left in these kind of curriculums.

Tami: 27:42

Well, and there's no opportunity for students to benefit from the reciprocity between reading and writing and the, you know, speaking, listening, like all these pieces, right? There's, there's, the connection missing, which makes it even more challenging, I think.

Katrena: 28:03

And I think that I'm going to say a majority of kids don't really learn well that way, but I do think it disadvantages kids who come from backgrounds that especially aren't like, I just, I see, like, you know, you see on the internet, you see these little tiny little like three year olds or something, just singing all the words to a song or are doing the Michael Jackson thriller dance, like to a T, right? And you think this kid, Has something, but we are not tapping into it and doing, like, a scripted curriculum where you're like, sit still and watch me read this little book and watch me say, okay, where's that word? You know, I mean, that is not tapping into any streaks that I don't know how. I don't know how to say it except for that's what I feel like we should be doing, you know.

Tami: 28:56

Yeah, yeah. Well, and honestly, it's hard when you're doing a lot of this stuff whole group

Katrena: 29:02

Mm hmm.

Tami: 29:02

to really even know.

Katrena: 29:04

Again, back to human relationships and connections and really getting to know your students. Um,

Tami: 29:11

Yeah. I feel like it's start, I don't even know if it started, but I feel like one of the early components of this was the manipulation of the student level as a teacher tool to becoming the absolute of what types of texts you're allowed to engage with too.

Katrena: 29:32

And that's the thing that I think is, is quite interesting that, you know, you mentioned at the beginning, talking about literacy experts would never say, We want you to guess right. We would also never say that you should be the like reading level should be the be all end all of what they read. Right. So some of the critique is spot on. Right? I mean, I've been thinking that forever. Like, these levels, this level thing, we have got to get rid of that. We need to get them in real books as soon as possible. We have got to get them out of those pattern books where they think that reading is memorizing. Right? So, but the problem is, the, and I don't mean people who are actual literacy scientists. I mean, like, the journalists. And the people that, that copy an anecdote, you know, um, that same anecdote that has gone around where it was completely fine for the teacher to let the kid say bunny instead of rabbit. you know, that's like, that is not obviously what literacy experts would tell you to do.

Tami: 30:43

Right.

Katrena: 30:44

but just because you saw that once doesn't mean that that's what we were doing. But, but I can also say on the other side of

Tami: 30:51

what is your goal for this reading opportunity? Was it making sense of the text? Was it, you know, like, because of a bunny and a rabbit, people, that's a pretty, visually, no, not the same. Cognitively, comprehensively wise, same

Katrena: 31:09

and that's the thing is that it's hard to explain to non literacy experts, especially early literacy, right, that those books serve a purpose. And once the purpose is taken care of, they should go away.

Tami: 31:25

Yes. Absolutely.

Katrena: 31:26

but some teachers kept them too long because the teachers actually didn't understand. Okay, so, you know, but that doesn't mean that. That we should just like throw the baby out of the bathwater. Um, I don't know. I, I have a, I have a, you know, Conflict with me myself, I think a little bit because I do think that there, we have been missing some opportunities to teach some phonics, you know.

Tami: 31:58

yeah,

Katrena: 31:58

I don't, my problem is, is that it doesn't have to be scripted curriculum.

Tami: 32:03

right. Like, where's, where's the happy medium? Right, where, again, going back to the toolbox idea.

Katrena: 32:11

Mm

Tami: 32:11

How do we look at best practice and the professional is able to pull from the toolbox that makes the most sense for the students in front of them. So, is that, I think when you're thinking about your literacy classroom and trying to address this, is that something that you get an opportunity to address? Or, like, what are you trying to do or what are some methods you're using to kind of help balance out the scripted narrative?

Katrena: 32:44

Well, one of the things that, I guess I kind of got stepped into the opportunity, but I made it my own, one of the courses I teach, they, the students actually go into the field and work with one on one with a, a new reader, somebody, a child who's learning how to read, and and they get to work with them five times over the semester, and they collect assessment, like authentic reading assessment, and they analyze it, and they make lessons from it, and they think about, where the child is strength wise, they think about they think a lot about engagement, too. Their interests, their background, what they want to learn about. So we try to pull it all together in a little neat package. Kind of, it's short, right? It's just a semester. Um, but I feel like originally the idea was the connection between theory and practice. So the original idea was, so you're learning all this stuff about early reading, right, all the science of reading stuff, right? So you're learning all this stuff, but what does it look like in practice? But what it turned out to be when I did some research and talked to the students and had them reflect is it turned into this beginning of a responsive teacher, I felt like because they were talking about how, you know, they learned that all the kids are different. So everybody in their college classes with a first grader, and they're sitting at a table with five other college age students going, Oh, my gosh, my kid can read. My kid can't, you know, so they're realizing that even in a first grade classroom, all kids are different and they all learn differently. They're learning that they could be the one to actually shift a kid. Right. So they could be, they have that little bit of power. It helps them to feel like, um, like I could actually change the true directory of this kid, maybe in a little way. Even if it's a baby step, right? So, I really, I feel really proud of that because those are the students that I think are coming back to me after that class and then the next class and they start going to clinicals where they are teaching more whole group

Tami: 34:51

Yeah.

Katrena: 34:52

and they're getting these scripted things that they're like it's not working, it's not working because I'm not actually teaching the kids I'm teaching this thing. And so, I'm hoping that we're planting a little bit of a seed. You know, and it's not just me, obviously, we really, as a college, we work really hard to talk about, being culturally responsive to kids and to realizing that it is a human relationship endeavor and that it may not, it may feel kind of, fuzzy and frilly or nebulous to be like, What's really going to change the behavior in the room is that relationship and that mutual respect. It doesn't feel real concrete to them, but I feel like even the student teachers that I watch over a semester, they start to, at first, they're like so frustrated with those, the kids that kind of are more extreme. And then you see them over the semester, like getting to know them and watching the student. Change a little student, the little child change and start paying attention to them. And then I, you know, and it's so satisfying to say, see, when you make that connection, then they do, then it makes a difference. Right so it's a journey, quite different from when I. It was in teacher prep, right? So, uh, we did, an experience right before student teaching and student teaching, and that's all, and now they're in the classroom a lot, right? I think it's a journey and I think that. It's a culture that we have to shift. We have to consciously shift. I feel like, whether we're in higher ed or, or in the K 12, that you learn everything you need to learn in college and then you're done. You know, that it's an ongoing. You get better, you can get better and you get better and you can, and you can feel like this is the most fantastic way I've managed a classroom. And then the next year you get 24 new kids and it's like, it doesn't work at all. And that's just part of it. And, you know, that kind of goes back to giving. To honoring the professionalism of teachers and giving them autonomy, though, because I feel like I'm afraid that many feel their hands are tied and that their feet are cut out from under them.

Tami: 37:17

Yeah

Katrena: 37:19

it's hard to be equitable when you don't feel empowered yourself.

Tami: 37:25

Yeah, oh Absolutely. Absolutely and I I think that you made a really important point right because part of the criticism of educators and Specifically moving, you know ed prep programs, right is they're saying they didn't prepare them to do this they they do and It's not a stagnant process, like you're constantly learning and adjusting as you get more experience, get more years. I'm going to go back to the doctor analogy, which I keep using, but a more experienced doctor has more tools in their belt to pull from to address the patient in front of them, that's what experience gives you. So I think it's an unfair criticism of teacher prep and of educators to say that brand new teachers. Don't know X, Y, or Z, because someone like you or me that has spent, decades in the field of education and, an extreme amount of time with, you know, education beyond, our bachelor degree around specific things like literacy, learning and instruction and equity, right? Like you, You can't lump all educators in one box.

Katrena: 38:46

If you think about that analogy, you know, and I think it goes back to many people think teaching is easy, you know, it's not, you know, all you got to do is pour stuff in their brain and it's a comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of how people learn in general. Right. So, you know, the latest I'm tangent denching a little bit, but the, the latest thing is that we're all going to have to be trained as higher, like me with a doctorate in reading have to be trained in science of reading, and the, all the teachers have to be right. This is legislated and that they think they literally think that if we all go through this, suddenly we're going to. Just start teaching this way because their understanding of learning is all you got to do is pour it in a person's head and they do it right. But going back to your analogy, it's like if we really did consider teachers professionals, which they have to be to be effective. Then, you know, we wouldn't say teacher education is the end. I mean, think about doctor. Medical school is the beginning. Finishing medical school is the beginning for a doctor. They have internships and residencies, right?

Tami: 39:57

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 39:58

And, and so, you know, there's lots of ways we could do better. You know, could we do more type, you know, well, they have a semester of internship, but maybe they need more.

Tami: 40:08

Right.

Katrena: 40:08

And maybe they don't need it from their teacher prep program. Maybe they need it from their district.

Tami: 40:12

well, that's what I'm thinking, like new teacher support and induction and, and how do we Continue that. I mean, teachers have continuing education requirements to maintain their licensure, right? So it is an ongoing process. But how are we providing that support? And I've seen a lot in my career where the new teacher is thrown into the most challenging, um, the most challenging opportunity and is expected. To perform like we're flip flopping it, right? Like our our veterans who have the experience in the tool belt either need to walk alongside The new or teacher in those environments or need to be the model and do it Versus try to withdraw from it.

Katrena: 41:03

right, we don't always follow our own philosophy. I kind of alluded to that before, but

Tami: 41:10

Yeah.

Katrena: 41:10

our, if our philosophy is that Children are individuals in need differentiation. Why wouldn't it be the same for adults? You know, so like if you have, even as a principal, like if you're an instructional leader, you have three or four new teachers in your building, they all might have different needs.

Tami: 41:29

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 41:29

And just sending them to central office might not be enough. Um, or again, back to like every class, it has a different makeup. So maybe one year is great and the next year is not. And they need a different, because the kids are bouncing, you know, because all of the people in the room make for a different environment. So. Yeah, I think we could give them more support for sure, but I don't think that necessarily would have to take away from their professionalism, right? I mean, that's gonna empower them.

Tami: 42:03

yeah, I agree. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, like, teacher professional development, what are the teacher, what are the teachers, are we listening to them? Like, this would be really helpful for me. I always joke about this with educators, like, all of us have sat through professional development, we're like, what, what is this and how are we

Katrena: 42:22

how's this help? Yeah, this doesn't apply to me. But, you know, and I also want to acknowledge that there are lots of places that do stuff like that. So, you know, they're just like, Every other thing, you know, education is on a monolith, you know, they're not all the same. I'm sure there are lots of school districts that have tons of support for their new teachers. And, and I think that's good. I think

Tami: 42:46

Yeah,

Katrena: 42:47

um, but yeah, I mean, they're, again, I feel like probably just repeating myself, but It's so complex.

Tami: 42:57

it

Katrena: 42:57

There is not one solution and there's not, I mean,

Tami: 43:01

Yeah.

Katrena: 43:02

I, I'm very hopeful that maybe some of this movement, will put back things back in that maybe have been missing. But I'm also, I'm really hoping for a trajectory where maybe we start. To, integrate things more again and make it more purposeful, and not like you said, just because you're a G, you have to read a G, but like, why would you be reading that book? What are you learning about that would help you, um, that would make these book choices purposeful? Rather than, you can only pick a G.

Tami: 43:39

right.

Katrena: 43:40

So I'm hoping I have a lot of hope

Tami: 43:42

I love that you have a lot of hope. I, I, I have hope to, I mean, otherwise I wouldn't be doing, I'm like, let's talk with people that are doing this. Like, I think, how do we learn from each other? How do we look at these districts that are doing great things and modeling, you know, strong support for their new teachers? How do we look at places, Yeah. Yeah. That are thinking, okay, the scripted curriculum isn't working. What do we mean by fidelity? What do we mean by this? How are we empowering our educators to be professionals? Like, I know these questions are existing. There are all these pockets. Of it around the country. I know there are like you can you can just see it. So my hope is that we start to come together and use the power of our, collective voice to make the change. Because for me, historically, people that aren't educators are making very big decisions

Katrena: 44:41

and money.

Tami: 44:42

Yeah, money, follow the money, always follow the

Katrena: 44:45

Mm-Hmm?

Tami: 44:46

which is, we could, we have a whole episode about that's how the testing movement started, but we won't get there either. Um, you know, making these big decisions, and again, what they believe about education because they went through school, like,

Katrena: 45:00

Mm-Hmm.

Tami: 45:01

we're the only profession where everybody thinks they know how to do our job because they were a student once. Being a student and being a teacher are two very different roles. Right?

Katrena: 45:10

And it's not a business like you said. And, and, and we're letting people who are business minded. run things too much. We're listening to them when we shouldn't. So you can, you know, that we have all, whether we're just a lowly teacher or, and I've put my quotes in the air there, or the, the administrator, we're letting people make us feel like we don't know somehow. Right. So, you know, we have to trust ourselves and trust our teachers.

Tami: 45:37

Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. So thinking about, we talked about a lot, which is very exciting. I love it. What would be kind of your advice to educators out there that are looking to do some of the things that you're trying to instill with your pre service teachers?

Katrena: 45:54

I would just want to say, I mean, if, if you're listening, I don't, I hope that no one gets like the impression that I don't feel like teachers can do it because I think teachers are amazing.

Tami: 46:06

Mm hmm.

Katrena: 46:07

Wanted to get my doctorate and teach teachers after I read Peter Johnson's book, Choice Words.

Tami: 46:12

Yes.

Katrena: 46:13

So, if you haven't read that, anybody, I, I highly recommend it. And what was cool, what I took from the book was so much, I changed the way I talked to my students, my children, everything, but, it, it really did shine through that Peter Johnson thought teachers were cool.

Tami: 46:30

Yeah.

Katrena: 46:31

Like he was watching teachers and seeing them kind of work some magic with their language. And so I believe that in the teachers that really, I mean, in these. These students that I have, they really want to be teachers. They are, they are super aware of the environment out there and they still want to be teachers. So I know they have some magic in them, right?

Tami: 46:56

I

Katrena: 46:56

So first of all, I would really want them to feel like they have the power and, and feel empowered to. To continue to learn, right, even if you've been teaching for 20 years, right, how could you learn more that maybe you don't have to feel like you need that curriculum, or you can use it as a tool instead of as whatever feel empowered to say, I know better, you know, if it could be a math curriculum, I can remember teaching the first grade. And they were asking me to have students do kind of algebra, basically, find the missing number is algebra, right? And, they didn't even have number concept yet. So it's like, I, you have to be able to watch your kids to know and be able to get off that train and see how, if you can figure out how to, to talk to your administrators to help them see. But that's what you need to do, you know, but, I, I feel like you have to feel, and I wish I had a tip that was just like. That I don't. You just have to feel that when you are the one that makes the shift in the kid, you can't help but not want to do it again.

Tami: 48:16

Mm

Katrena: 48:16

When you see them move because of something your move made them move, you want to do it again. And I can, I have probably can't count on both my hands how many times that I've had teacher, like practicing teachers say to me something like, Oh, but they're high. Those kids are high as like a rationalization for the kids doing well, and it's like no, no, no, no, you did that.

Tami: 48:43

Yes.

Katrena: 48:45

them and you got them to that place. It's not like low kids don't go anywhere and high kids go somewhere. No, it's what you do. And I hate to say low and high, but you know what I mean, right? It's what you do that makes the shifts happen. we have got to start taking credit for what we do We can be pretty powerful and magical if we want to be, right?

Tami: 49:12

Yeah.

Katrena: 49:12

And so I guess that's the thing. I don't, that's not like a solid concrete tip, but I think that we have to start taking credit for the moves our kids make, the way they move forward in their learning, whether it's reading or math or whatever. Is it something that we've done?

Tami: 49:33

Yeah.

Katrena: 49:34

It's not that they're just in the world,

Tami: 49:37

Right. It didn't just like spontaneously happen, right? So what I'm hearing you say your tip is, like own the magic of yourself as an educator. And your ability to bring out the magic in the learners in front of you. Right? Like, it is. It's just joyful. Learning should be joyful.

Katrena: 49:54

Mm-Hmm,

Tami: 49:55

bring out the joy. It should bring out the joy of you, of the educator. It should be bringing out the joy in the children. Because, you know, the way Students face lights up when they they get it or they connect with something or you see that like it's contagious So I love that tip.

Katrena: 50:14

Yeah. And use your language. Use your language to show them that they got it. Do you feel that like, and I don't care if they're five or they're 21, when they, when they light up and they get something, and as a teacher instructor, you say, do you feel that you just got it, that it means something that they get? They're like, yeah, I figured that out. And, and then as the teacher, you gotta say, and I helped make it happen.

Tami: 50:42

Yes. Yes. I love that I also love Peter Johnson's choice words, y'all. I will put a link to that in the information for the episode, as well as a book about kid watching, if you are not even sure what that really means, and how to start using the power of observation with your students. I'll put a link in there for a great resource and tool as well. But I just want to thank you, Katrina. It has been such a pleasure talking with you today. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much y'all. And remember you can like share and subscribe and you can also support the content building with the podcast with a subscription and or a little gift head over to IG dragonfly rising LLC to do that. So we'll talk to you next time. Thank you.