Spreading Joy and Justice in Schools

In this episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean sits down with Kass Minor, inclusive educator, author of "Teaching Fiercely: Spreading Joy and Justice in Our Schools," and co-founder of The Minor Collective. Dive into a passionate discussion on fostering equity, joy, and justice in classrooms and school communities. Kass shares insights from her book and her personal experiences as a classroom teacher, mother, and equity advocate. Together, they explore strategies to make schools more inclusive spaces where every adult teaches, and every student learns.

Listeners will gain actionable ideas on building joyful, justice-centered classrooms, and redefining the role of "knowers" in education. Perfect for educators and school leaders seeking to deepen their understanding of social justice practices in education.

Listeners will leave inspired to rethink their classrooms as places of empowerment, joy, and justice, ready to implement strategies that foster equity and inclusion.

Head over to Instagram @dragonflyrisingllc for a chance to win a copy of Kass' book! 

Discovery Call

Transcript

 

Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the equity hour with your host, me, Dr. Tami Dean. I am thrilled today to introduce our guests for this episode. I am like so excited to talk about all the things. So today we have with us Cass Minor. Cass Minor is an inclusive educator and author who is Deeply involved in local inquiry based teacher research and school community development.

She is the author of teaching fiercely spreading joy and justice in our schools in the co founder and chief strategist of the minor collective,  a community based organization designed to foster sustainable equity and literacy in schools. While she has worked in numerous. Capacities and partnerships with universities and school districts classroom teacher has been her most coveted role.

Her pedagogy is centered centered on joy from the communities that surround her and motivated by the idea that every adult can teach and every student can learn teacherhood paired with motherhood has driven her love of information sharing, redefining who gets to be the knower. In the fiery world we live in today.

So all those things. Hi Cass! 

Hey, how are you, Tami? It's so great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. Like everything in your bio is all the things we stand for here at Dragonfly Rising. So I am just so thrilled to get to talk with you today and talk about your book and share that with all the educators. out there listening today. 

Incredible. I'm excited, too. It's such a great time to have these conversations, too, when everybody's like kind of rested, the school years are starting, and it's like, you know, how can,  what are the things we want to try for this year? What do we want to aspire to? I think there's, it's like the best time to have that conversation.

absolutely. Absolutely. So I want to get started  each episode, as you know, I start with the idea that I believe equity work is a, is a journey and it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's not a one time. professional development workshop, and that we each have our own individual journey through this work.

And so I would love if you'd share just a little bit about your personal work, uh, or personal journey, sorry, around this equity, work and experience. Mm

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I started teaching. I started,  the work and education certainly, um, in my student life, right as a young person growing up in the 80s and the 90s.  I actually went to school all over the country. My dad was in the military, you know, my mom kind of like, we were just following him wherever his work took us.

And so, it's funny when we talk about our journey. I think we often talk about our journey when we began teaching. Right. But it really began much earlier. And so I had like this interesting experience where I was going to schools across the country. And the military is like the strange, like socialist land and that there's this like diverse peoples and everybody's parents are wearing the same uniform when they go to work.

 If you live on base, like everybody's wearing that, you know, living in the same exact house. So it's like a really, really different paradigm. Um, but when I was in middle school and high school, we moved off base and I went to schools that weren't really like, you know, military families. And so it was like a completely different experience for me.

Um, and I think like my journey starts in understanding the importance of equity and just seeing the different landscapes that exist, you know, in the, in. Same, federal system that everybody who goes to public school at least belongs to or, you know, to a certain extent, any other form of school.

Um, it's really, it's really different. And there are different people who get different things just by the, by way of how they're born, where they're born, who their family is. And so that was very clear to me.  I was very young,

Mm hmm.

like I, I went straight to working in like South side of Chicago, urban environment had never lived in the city before I was thrown into a school system.

And I was super unfamiliar with, and I was like, Oh, I thought I knew something. And you just, you know, I, my, it's like this learner stance, I think is really important. So yeah, knowing that like, just by way of who you are, you'll get different things. And the equity is like really important to understand, that's real.

You know, I think secondly, if you're new to a community, like you can bring your book learning, you can bring your degree with you, whatever, but equity work really is. inextricably linked to the communities that you are working with. And so, you know, this is when I'm like 21 years old,

Yeah.

literally more than 20 years ago at this point, 

Me too, girl. 

you know, that I understood, it is important to understand the foundations of learning, et cetera. But I would argue more importantly, especially when you're thinking about building equitable foundations and opportunities for everyone, you really have to position yourself as somebody who's an.

actively listening, and you're not in it for the optics, right? It can feel very cool to be like, oh, you know, I'm doing this equity work, and like, I'm in this book club, but it's a very different experience when you are positioning yourself in a community, and you're like, oh, I am not the person who knows all the things, like the folks,  right?

And sometimes those folks might be less than 10 years old. Like many times they're the kids that are in your classroom that you really need to like lean into and listen to and understand like, Oh, like maybe I need to do things a little bit differently. 

absolutely. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, that's one, right? Like, there's a whole lot of other stuff, but that's, you know, that's my foundation right there,

the core. Yeah. The leaning into being a learner and understanding the community. I think that's the piece that, and I actually just talked about this on my recent podcast episode too, was,  the idea that you have to know your why, and you're not just doing it because everybody else is doing it. Like that learner stance, that intentive,  you know,  reason for why you're doing it.

And the listening and the learning part is super important. Like the assumptions is super  And I love the idea, you need to listen to the students, right? 

 Right?

they, they, they live in that space. They're part of the community. And I, and I would even say you need to listen to the, their parents,  because sometimes I feel.

We're quick to  project blame  on or judgment on different ways of parenting or ability to engage or access with the school system based on Um, Like personal experience,  right? Like it's supposed to look like a, but it's really looking like B. And so, because it's looking like B, that must mean  these parents don't care.

They're not involved or whatever that, you know, judgment narrative is. Yeah. Totally 

I think what's interesting is, like, there's so much cultural capital that families of all kinds bring. And I think the thing to be aware of, you know, as we're building equity and,  And equity includes like this, like everybody has a right to a joyful experience in school,  the learning of everybody in a school community should feel good.

Like, people should not have to feel a sense of trepidation when they go to, you know, a PTA meeting, for example,  a kid should certainly should never feel like that when they're in a classroom. But unfortunately, like , that's why you and I are here in this conversation, because it's very common for people to have those experiences.

And so I think like this idea of.  You know, really leaning into families and understanding,  all the things they have to bring. It's important for us because school is really designed in this sort of, silo, right? Like, reading, reading big books with lots of words and writing long essays with, you know,  nice vocabulary.

Like, that's One way to, to be a learner, right?  You're living in 2024, right? Where there are so many things that we as educators have to contend with, you know, thinking about AI, like the AI  to generate so much of what is on state standards, it's, it's frightening. And it's a reality that we have to think about.

Right. And so. I think leaning into kids ability and family's ability to communicate, like, what are they able to do in the home, you know, this idea of funds of knowledge, how are we  releasing that and bringing it into our schools?  When you go to communities who are really doing that, it makes, I mean, it's such a different experience than people who are just sort of, like, working in this marriage, like, meritocracy, or,  climbing the social ladder that doesn't Mean the same thing in 2024 as it did in, 1992 and so part of that pretty work is also like evolving, evolving in like our current reality, like what are kids contending with and what's different about what they have access to and what's happening in their world as opposed to when we were students, right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's like night and day. Like I, I joke that I'm so glad that like social media didn't exist when I was You know, in college in the nineties or school in the nineties,  just because the,  the implications of that. Right. Like you, it was safer to learn and experience the world without everyone seeing what you were doing.

But yeah, you know, but oh yeah, there's so many things in like, how do we change? And I think, One of the challenges is it seems that education is slow to evolve. I had so much hope is as troubling as the pandemic was right. I had so much hope that we would shift how we think about learning and students and education, um, And then I feel like we doubled down because  we got into this, you know, narrative about learning loss, which I don't agree with that term, but we, we can talk about that later.

But because

yeah. Yeah. 

like, I'm like, they didn't lose anything. Okay. But anyway, I digress. I do want to talk about because this I,  you mentioned and talked about everyone  deserves joy. in their educational experience. And that is one of the things you talk about in your book, Teaching Fiercely, which everyone, I, I love this book.

First of all, y'all know, I'm the biggest book nerd, but like, I was just smiling, reading your book, Cass, like,

Yeah. Yeah, we're

it's written in such a way that I feel like you're talking to me. So I, 

to your friends with me now. 

yes, like I do, but you talk about joy and justice and  showing up as your whole self. And that's one of the things like I personally believe in, I feel like when we show up as our whole self and use our voice, we give space and opportunity for others. to do the same. So I would love for you to talk some more about that and what you talked about in your book.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think about longevity and this life, right? Like, and especially being connected to education and people who are in that work. And I think folks who, a lot of folks who are in it for a long time are in it because they are able to be themselves, to bring all of themselves into the classroom space.

And, I have a lot of beef with this idea of like, Separating, oh, you know, like I'm here. I'm  this person at work. I'm my professional self here. And then when I go home, like, you know, that's, that's my personal,  a separate situation. Of course, for sure. Like, I don't, I don't suggest that like folks say all the things that are happening in their personal life in the classroom.

But I remember like,  You know, I was alternatively certified back in the day,  and so my teacher education was fairly like I was working full time and learning to be a teacher, and it was sort of like I had so many deer in the headlights moments. So the thing that I often leaned on is what I knew about teaching and learning and outside of the classroom spaces.

So, you know, like, I just remember being  15 years old and my dad, teaching me how to, change the oil in my car. Like. You know how to do a tire change. I remember sitting on the couch with my grandmother like learning how to crochet. And so there's this really important component of learning that is deeply relational.  For so many kids if that is not present in the classroom, And for so many adults ,we are conditioned to just keep on going regardless of how we feel like that's what our society teaches us to do.  When you allow like I had to lean on  relational learning because it is what I knew best, when I was not yet comfortable with like , all of the components of a lesson plan and when I really didn't quite, I was still figuring out like,  You know, unit trajectories and like how to get from point A to point B.

I was still, I have my license in general education and special education.  I had a lot of kids, I had 15 year olds with severe dyslexia who really didn't navigate sentences yet. And I was, Trying to teach them, not a 10th grade science standards. And so there are all these things that I, that I didn't feel comfortable doing,  but the thing that I leaned on most was, you know, this idea of relational learning.

And so I never separated, you know, my home life from my work, from my, from my teacherhood. Right. And so.  My students have always known, you know, my pets, they know a little bit about my kids, like when I got married, I met my partner Cornelius, my first year of teaching, like, so he's always been part of like my pedagogy essentially, right? 

Um, and I just think that so many folks try to try to do teaching  without bringing like these really  deep parts of their heart into the conversation  and it's just unhealthy because it's,  teaching is one of the hardest jobs in the universe, I think. And if you separating pieces of yourself from the long hours in the classroom and from the intense issues that you have to work out, like, You're not going to be able to fully, give it your all in solving these problems because the most important pieces of you are somewhere else.

And so the joy is, it's not stereotypical, like, you know, laughter and jokes or whatnot. The joy is, just  Being able to go home at the end of the day and being like, what? I did my best and my whole self got to enjoy that. Not just the small part of my brain that like, you know, knows lots of vocabulary and can get a class to be quiet within like three minutes.  Such a different conversation when you are not separating yourself from school and your home life. 

I  just resonate with that so much cause I don't,  I don't feel like I separated it either. Like I just, as you were talking, I'm  reflecting back and thinking about some of my former students, right? They were like,  Just the things they would say and do because they knew about me like one was I just for some reason this flash in My mind I had this sweet sixth grader It was around Christmastime and  she went I don't know maybe went to the dollar store I don't know.

Anyway bought me some makeup because she was like

Oh my God

Yes,  she was she was like, I know you like to look your best Every day and so I got this for you Right? Or, you know, even a college student came to find me the next semester and brought me my favorite coffee. Cause they knew what my favorite coffee was to like, thank me for this semester before.

Right. But those are little pieces of me that don't seem important, but they are. Like  I. The relationship is so important because I also feel like with this bringing your heart and your whole self in the relationship, you give space for the humanity of the things that happen with the students in your room. 

100 percent and I also think you know, I know there were probably there are naysayers, right? Like and usually that comes around boundaries, right? Like where do you draw the boundary? Between what you're giving in school versus like how what you're preserving for yourself and certainly, you know We're grown ups, right so we can make those distinctions, but I also want to say  the way our Physiology is designed like biologically, is that you are not, in fact, even if you think you are, separating your brain from your heart.

Mm.

Instinct in school, like rather, I mean, one of the things that I'm a huge proponent of is teachers listening to their instincts. Like, what are your instincts telling you? And so often we are stifling our instincts and we are stifling what we feel in our heart. And we are just moving with our minds because that's what we're taught to do.

And we want to be rewarded and society and especially school. Rewards folks who can follow directions or do the directive. And right now we are living in an educational landscape that is,  that's putting forth a lot of directives that are not good for children, that are not good for teachers.  Right? And  even if you think like, Oh, I don't bring my personal life into school you are you're just stifling it.

And so do that over like four or five years,  you're most likely you will no longer be in the teaching profession because you will burn out and it will not feel good to show up in school when you don't have your whole self present. 

Yes.  Yes. Absolutely. I agree with that.  Oh my gosh. 

I know it's a lot. I'm just If all who just you know, it's zero 360 real fast with me. I have a hard time with like small talk It's always like real deep real fast 

look, this is my favorite kind of talk. I'm just like, ooh, yes. And I. Because for me now this becomes reflective as I think about conversations I've had with educators and, and their frustration and, and why they're leaving in this,  I 100 percent agree that our educational landscape is becoming very directive and it's taking the professionalism  away from the educators.

who are there to do  the work. And in your book,  I feel like we're connected in some way because you're like, I did this  because this is what I felt like was best for my students. And I was so much the same way as a very young teacher. And when I was in university preparing future teacher candidates and we would talk about this and like, well, how do I do that?

I said, well, you're gonna have to figure out what that looks like for you because what I'm comfortable, you know, You're a different person, right?  But this idea when you wrote about this  is  that educators are in a space where they might want to, when we think about listening to our instinct, but there is, um, I'm gonna use the word fear a little bit

Culture is  for real google it folks. There's tons of research on it

Yeah. And  it, it troubles my heart  because. We're doing such damage to kids and we're doing it  to educators as well. And I know there's a lot of conversation right now, and I'm curious what you think about this. There's a lot of conversation right now around the uptick in behavior challenges. With students, and I firmly believe that one of the main reasons for that is  how we've shifted what classroom looks like, and we are just expecting people to sit and get and  not bring their humanity.

So, I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Oh, my gosh. Do I have thoughts about that? Yeah.  I mean, I think, you know,  first and foremost, to talk about, the journey of,  what I do now versus, like, being in a classroom every day with children.  I just remember being a teacher and, you know, we would get, the professional development experience.

There would be consultants coming in, like, doing a keynote or, you know, working with us. And certainly, it wasn't all terrible, but the thing that I really had.  A lot of disdain for is when people would tell me what I needed to do without experiencing my classroom life with me.

Yeah. 

So I, so when I, I, I bring that up because I think that, you know, there's, Huge disconnect between educational research and people who are living classroom life daily.

Right. And so this idea of teachers going to, you know, build knowledge and just having a person like Talk at the front of the room and just like say stuff and they're supposed to like internalize it and then execute it. It's just such a bad model of learning. Like what we know about learning, that is people can do it.

Like people are conditioned to do it, but it's very  adrenaline based. It's you know, if I don't know this thing, then like, I'm going to get  a bad review or  I'm going to, I have to go to the principal's office and like, they're going to tell me, I need to do all these things to improve my teaching.

And so I think part of it is like teachers don't get that teachers don't get rich learning experiences.  And so when teachers are in classrooms right now, like doing what we're talking about, it's almost  subversive, right?  Developing relational learning, like inquiry based, um, inquiry based curriculum.

Teacher created curriculum, like is super rare,  unless you're a high school teacher,  you probably aren't making a lot of your own curriculum. And so, I think this idea of,  Like  humans, whether or not they're kids, our teachers like generating questions and wonderings, from their own selves, their own communities,  that's so  rare.  And that is like the, that is the most joyful way to build learning experiences based off people's curiosity. And so you.  All of this and this is just it's very market driven, right? You have all this curriculum being created and certainly like it is research based and there is a lot of, um, you know, I'm not not knocking like curriculum, right?

Because teachers, you know, times you're right, like four different curriculums. Um, but I am knocking this idea that  teachers  fear, being like agents of  adaptations in their community of learners. Like you should be able to adapt a curriculum. You should be able to revise it based on what your kids are showing you.

Like keep rolling on the rug and  disconnected because reading about Paul Bunyan isn't meaningful to them, right? Like,

Yes.

so, but, but I can like choose a different text. And I, you know, and I can follow  a similar lesson trajectory that the curriculum is suggesting. And so, I think the sit and get idea of learning just, it's, it's just bad. 

We just know as researchers and people who study like human learning, it is the, it is on the bottom of, you know, the ladder in terms of how to design learning for people in ways that's sustainable, not like longitudinal and that they'll remember. Like in the future. It's literally the worst model of teaching.

And yet,  and yet it is like so prolific in professional development.  And so,  I mean, I'm all about, you know, we got to change it up folks. And,  and people who are supervising teachers, like need to be cool with that. Like they need to support that. The conversation needs to stay open. It can't be like, Oh, I'm afraid to, I'm afraid to change it up.

Because, you know, so and so said I had to do it, like, exactly as it's written.  And I just learned from my good friend of mine, Colleen Cruz, we do a lot of work together,  um, no parents commercial curriculum has been designed with students with disabilities at the center.  Zero.  It's just keeping that in mind when we're telling people to do things exactly as written.

Sit here, learn this, like  So I, I just, you know, if we think about that, it's a really nice way for us to feel the call to like, do the inquiry work of revising curriculum that matters and makes a difference for the kids in front of us. 

Absolutely. I feel like it's so sad that I am not surprised by that  fact. Like, I wish I was, but I,  I am not. And  I have had the experience of working with so many teachers that really were in fear of moving outside of the scope and sequence. Like what you're talking about, their students were telling them they needed more time with certain content or they were curious and interested in the content and they really wanted to spend more time in that space. 

The narrative is they can't  because they need to get through all of this and prepare,  you know, for a standardized test, which when we,  when we talk about that's the worst type of learning. And I think about this all the time  and it troubles me this, the sit and get test prep type of.  Experience that we're giving to students  ignores  research that says when we engage in critical thinking, inquiry based, creative curiosity, learning, when we, when we do all these higher level thinking. 

We're going to do just fine  on a low level, multiple choice standardized test because we're able to engage and think in our brain and we actually do worse  on standardized tests when we just, that's all we focus on.

right? 100%. And I think, you know, I also don't want to be all like doom and gloom, right? Like,

I know.

to, I don't want people to feel like despair after they listen to this. I do want to say, like, when we think about, you know, the work that y'all do at Dragonfly and that, my partner and I do with the Myrna Collective in community with so many people.

We partner with school communities and, and some of our central focus is reinvigorating creativity and curiosity in classroom spaces. And it's not separate from a commercial curriculum necessarily  does put the onus on humans in the room to really think about, you know, how are we connected to our community of learners that we're working with?

hmm.

How can we use? What we know about research, what we know about learning in connection to what we know about our learners. So, you know, I, I work with this amazing school in Brooklyn for quite a few years now. And I had such a lovely time working with K through two teachers. And we did like a huge study on creativity and curiosity in the classroom.

And part of it is like reading the research, like

Yeah.

it's just an opportunity to like play with the ideas that you and I get to , really think about a lot.

Yeah.

Always get that opportunity. It's very much like respond, respond, respond. So let's make proactive opportunities for educators to play around with these ideas. 

And then, you know, like, uh , usually, myself or Kwon will design, like, an experience for them that simulates, classroom life. We might invite some kids into the space, like, ask them questions about how they feel. And then we try it all together. there's so many rich opportunities to build what we know are joyful learning practices. 

But it does require us to be willing  to do those things, even when,  People are recommending something like very different than our personal philosophies. And we really have to prove, I don't want to say prove, we have to have data that supports what we're doing. Right. That's huge. And that has always been my ace.

Like these are artifacts. These are the experiences. This is what kids are saying. This is what families are saying, you know, and certainly I know there are people who will still say like, no, but many people in my experience, I'm more open to conversations about doing things a little differently.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. Um, that's one thing I used to tell my students. I said, you need to have the why and the data about why you're making the decision you are and like, you're getting the results, right? Like that. It's hard because we are in such a data driven, right? And to me, and I want to be clear, when I say data, it's not just quantitative data because we tend to, focus on that a lot.

Like, and you mentioned that, that qualitative piece, like, what are the students saying? What are the families saying? What are we noticing?  Around the communities that we engage with and how they they're feeling,  um, and showing us when we when we engage with these kinds of opportunity. But absolutely.

Right. Um,  and when when you're talking about the humans making  the decisions right to engage with this and leaders providing opportunities for teachers. to engage with this.  I think that's a really important piece, and  it makes me think of in your book, you had this great visual, right? Like, uh, the cogs and the generator of hope and how this all works together.

So I don't know if it's easy to describe for you. I know those of you listening might not be able to visualize it, but that's why you need to get the book so you can see it.  You're welcome.  Let's talk a little bit about the generator of hope. Because I feel like that connects so well.

Absolutely. So in my book, I have this conceptual framework. It's called a structure generator of hope. And I was finishing this book, like, post, right post, um, you know, lockdown is when I think I turned in the manuscript. And so, it was a really nice space to, reconsider or, you know, revise how I envisioned and my community envisioned, like, school, right?

And so I know, like, it sounds cheesy, but, hope is a really important thing for us to maintain if we are to be committed to work towards something different. And so.  This idea of radical hope really drove the structure generator of hope. And so radical hope is this, this ability to be committed to working towards something different, even when you don't necessarily have schema or experience in what you're working towards.

And so I think many of us who are in the work of, of revising education  did not have the kinds of school experiences that we would want for our own children. We want something better. Right. And so. It starts with like, you know, on the left side of this generate, and you can actually go to my website, cast and corn.

com and at the bottom of one of the pages, like you'll see the visual there. So if you want to check it out, Sarah, um, but on the left side of this visual, it's like all of the things that are problematic in terms of like people being able to not just experience joyful learning, but  have a tendency to, you know, work in the realm of injustice, right?

So.  Competition, hierarchy, monolingual experiences, like, um, just really, quick and fast,  transactional, transactional learning spaces, like this expectation that, you know, if you do X, then you, then you get this thing. So, , perfect example is homework. If you did your homework and you get to go to recess, if you didn't do your homework and you have to stay inside and just be in this empty classroom with me.

Right? Like, it's this idea, like, deservedness is like a big thing.

Mm hmm.

So that's on the left side. It's like all of these things that exist. But we want to move toward away from right so like on the very far end. It's collaboration, you know, relational learning, and there's a whole list there. Right. But I, I also want to complicate this idea you can't just  it doesn't happen overnight like this move from transactional learning spaces to all of a sudden more relational like there's something that has to happen, records. 

routines, like really generative community conversations. And so in the center of the generator are these cogs, right? Or wheels, I should say.  And like one of those wheels is  dreams, dreaming. And when I say dreaming, like we have, we have to be able to work together to envision like other stuff.

 If we are in a space where we can't imagine anything different, then I think that's very dangerous. And so we have to like, Do that work.  The other thing that's really important is  Routines and rituals. So we as a community of educators like have to make time that's not necessarily like outside of our school day.

So teachers that's very difficult for us to do because we don't always have control of our programming.

Yeah.

I do think like there's, you know, there's some creativity that can happen. Like I'm a big fan of like lunch as a dreaming face. Not everybody likes to do that during lunch. So I don't, I don't have all of like the nitty gritty answers  like these bigger ideas are really important. 

And then this idea of like nourishment,  how are we feeding ourselves? Like teachers, educators, output,  the output of like love, care, ideas, organization, like literally, snacks even is it's just so immense.

Yeah.

And I think about school spaces. Like what are we like giving one another?

Like how are we feeding each other? I think is a really important thing for us to consider. So whether it is actual food, that is important too, because I, I myself still like in the game for so long and I had to skip lunch yesterday. I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I skipping lunch?

Yes.

preach about not skipping lunch.

Um, so whether or not it's food, cool. But also, like I said, um, You know, I work with a librarian in Canada,  and she set up, , a thought sanctuary space. Another thing I talk about, which is essentially a space for people to play around with ideas that does not require them to produce or, have something concrete that has definitely worked, is that teachers have to be able to play around with ideas.

For me, that was the biggest source of nourishment. When people gave me time to, like, read and consider and, make stuff with folks, like, that Fed me. But I had to, unfortunately, like, I had to make that space more often than not.

Yeah.

And so the last thing I'll say is that the idea of generator  is really, really important.

So generators do not produce like new,  energy, like they  there's no, um, input of energy. It's like the P like the machine working in itself, Jen own energy. And so I say that because I think Folks look outside of their community to make the change like they bring people in, which is, you know, it's always good to have another perspective, but the change is going to happen within the community, like if it's going to happen, it's the energy that's produced in an organized way amongst the folks themselves.

And so that's the generator part, which I get really excited about when I see the community working together, like that's, that's the juice, that's the difference, 

Oh. Absolutely.  My mind is just thinking about all these, like,  movements. Right. That started in a community. And that, that power, the energy is palpable, right? When you think about that, and it,  it's usually focused around hope around whatever topic it was in that community. 

a hundred percent, man. We next podcast is like studying social movements because  you just hit me in the head, like that's it. Right.

Right. It is. I mean,

It's some, some really powerful people coming together. And like, that's the change, you know, very unpopular to say, but Martin Luther King was not the person who made like civil rights movement difference.

It was the people that gathered together and like organized in such a way and lifted him to be a voice of people. Right. It's 

absolutely.

a lot of opportunity for

Absolutely. Well, and  I think that just  speaks to the power.  Of our collective and maybe that's why you're called the minor collective. I don't know, but it makes me think of that, right? Like the collective, the power of the collective people. In looking in wanting for something new and different and then you connect that with,  you know, using your voice and showing up like all of these things aren't in isolation. 

They work very strongly together.  to generate, right, the change that we're looking for, that we know is best for kids, communities, teachers, just the educational community in and of itself, um, and that teacher agency.  And so,  I think about, and you talk about this in your book too, like the journey, you talk about justice, and I've always said once you start to,  See, it's hard to not see. 

I,  um, years ago when I was teaching undergrads, they read, uh, Peggy McIntosh is unpacking your invisible knapsack.

Oh yeah. That's a great idea.

Yes. And, you know, we came back and we had our class session and we're talking about it. And one of my students is like, I feel like my rose colored glasses have been removed from my face because now I'm just,  noticing  so many things, right?

And so you talk about this connection to awareness in your book too, and in this journey and justice. 

100%. Yeah. So I believe it's chapter two. It's like seeing it, feeling them, the pressure.

Mm hmm.

Right. And one of the things that is interesting is being in different parts of this country and depending on like who you are in community with, like you'll, you'll be able to notice different things. So myself as a white person who, you know, my first work in schools was in on the South side of Chicago.

So South side of Chicago is like 97 percent African American. And so very quickly. Like the optics of what I was seeing in schools on the south side, you know, just stuff that was happening in classrooms that would never fly in other spaces, more privileged spaces, more white spaces,

Mm hmm.

you know, like that, that site, it's like this vision, it's a click, , oh, there's that, right.

And then because most of my career as an educator. Teacher classroom teacher has been here in New York City. It's super diverse right from school to school district district. And because I was in special education spaces for a really long time,  you know, the vision that I was able to, like, I just saw some really unjust situations.

You know, I write about it in my book, like, disabilities and how they manifest in, in different folks from different neighborhoods are seen very differently from school psychologists, from,  the way like the school community views like their actions. And, you know, if there's a fight or if there's, um, an outburst in the classroom, their classmate might come home and tell their family and then immediately the family starts, demanding  all of these things happening.

And there's such a lot of,  you know, people, a lot of folks just don't have the experience of witnessing all of these things. So that's why it's really important to read and listen. And not just wait to talk, we just like work to understand what's happening in equities that exist in our systems.  And, you know, part of my work , especially in the realm of the equity umbrella is just helping people know, like, there's so much.

Especially for folks who are more privileged, especially for white folks. We know 80 percent of teachers in the United States are white women.

Mm hmm.

The population is very different, right? Like by the year 2043,  um, the majority of folks attending public school specifically will not be, will be non white folks. 

Even understanding that dynamic, like you, we have to learn.  We when I say we I'm talking about we white people and it's not a white non white situation right like there's folks from from other races and ethnicities that certainly carry privilege that certainly like subscribe to some dominant ideals like.

It's really important for us to, like, be fine tuned to what kids are experiencing in schools,

Mm hmm.

necessarily created for them. And when their family has different cultural capital, that isn't necessarily, like, rewarded in school spaces. And so part of our work is, is seeing all of the different things that are happening.

And that doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey. It's like, it's literally like brushing your teeth. Every day  you got to like clean  and every day you'll work on it and you'll see everything and it's it's a lot right to me. It's a lot.

oh, it's a lot. Yes.

It's very heavy. And then with that comes like a level of care and talk about boundary solving like you have to really give yourself some grace to.

Yes. 

But I think that's one of the most important things we do in school communities is to build people's sight. Like they have to be able to see and feel the pressure of injustice to them. To the extent they're able to because many of their peers who are working in the community, many of their students feel it with such depth every single day.

And so when we have folks who are feeling it The injustice to who are have power and, you know,  power and, um, agency in ways that kids and families do not.

Mm hmm.

And we start to see like differences and it doesn't always feel good to be the folk, to be the person who's like, uh, excuse me, I'm, I'm witnessing this thing that's really not cool.

Like what can we do about it? Like that takes some guts.

Yeah,

If more people did it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't feel so scary. It wouldn't feel so right. You know, you wouldn't feel so unpopular. 

Yeah, it wouldn't, it wouldn't feel risky.

Yes, that's a better word. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah,  absolutely. Oh my gosh, Cass. Okay, so I've had, I feel like I could talk to you for hours,

Yeah, for sure. I know. Like, when are we going to talk about the next costume? 

Right, right. But I do love, um, to kind of wrap up each. Episode with kind of just next steps for you and just, if you want to share like a pro tip, an idea for our listeners.

Yeah, you know, my biggest mantra that I, that I just started to develop last year after just whatever experiencing this life is never do anything alone.  Don't work alone.  Like that is the biggest thing I can offer right now. This work is very hard. Um, it is very fulfilling, but it is incredibly lonely if you do not have somebody who's connected with a similar mission.

Um, so that is what I can offer folks, in terms of like a pro tip, 

Yes.

but I, but I also want to say, you know, in terms of minor collective, we are really searching for ways to connect folks to be in community with folks who do share a similar mission, who really want to reinvigorate and revise the way kids are experiencing school.

We want every kid and teacher and school leader, right. It's a habit to have like a time that feels. full and where they feel like their whole self is included and fills a sense of belonging. And so, um, I know Dr. Tami Dean will put some of my socials and stuff like that, but be on the lookout just for me to, for, to be connected.

We have some stuff like brewing, that's, you know, not totally like nailed down right now, but, um, I'm, I'm excited to, Dr. Tami Dean and I are now like budding community, right?

Yes. 

it feels so much better just when you are. in conversation with people who are working towards the same thing as yourself.

Um, so thank you so much for having me, Tami. It's been a true pleasure. Um, I'm really excited to just, you know, keep this conversation going and whatever ways it can manifest.

Oh, me too. Thank you so much for coming today, Cass. And yes, um, listeners, I will go ahead and drop in the show notes. The connection for all of Cass socials connections, a link to her book, Teaching Fiercely, and head on over to Instagram because we're going to do a book giveaway. Woo.

Bye.

Yes. So you can enter that, but thank you so much, Cass.

Thank you so much listeners. And thanks for joining us for another episode of the equity hour.