Leading with Inclusion: Embracing Neurodiversity

In this thought-provoking episode, Katherine McCord, founder of Titan Management, joins Dr. Tami to explore the power of embracing neurodiversity and fostering inclusion in education, business, and beyond. Drawing from her personal experiences with OCD, misophonia, and bipolar disorder, Katherine shares actionable strategies for educators and corporate leaders alike to create spaces where all individuals can thrive.

Listeners will gain insights on:

• The Business Case for Inclusion: “Innovation flourishes when everyone’s unique strengths are recognized and valued.” — Katherine McCord
• Practical Strategies for Inclusive Classrooms and Workplaces: “Equity isn't just a box to check. It’s the foundation for a better culture.” — Dr. Tami
• The Role of Leadership in Driving Equity: “Leadership is about listening deeply and building systems of belonging.” — Katherine McCord

Whether you're an educator or business leader, this conversation will leave you inspired to lead with inclusion and harness the transformative power of diverse perspectives.

Discovery Call

Transcript

 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the equity hour. I, of course, am so excited to bring another guest  to our listeners today. Today, I have Katherine McCord with me from being the little girl who played HR, even firing her own mother. Okay. That's a story we might have to chat about, , to traveling HR and neurodiversity. The consultant she is today. Katherine has had quite a journey.

She is an international speaker, HR tech innovator, and perpetual innovator. And everything comes back to her three missions, integrity, inclusion, and innovation. Welcome to the show, Katherine.

Thank  you. And I'm so, I'm sorry that was supposed to say HR tech inventor. I think that was a typo, but  

okay.  

It's okay. Like it's, it's so funny. Like I love, I love the intros I get from people and the funniest reaction is always to the part about me firing my own mother, which I did. Like I did, I was, I was six years old. And my mother worked in HR. Okay, that this is an important part of the

story is that my mother worked in HR. Okay. And I call her in and we were always playing games for like she interviewed with me at employee relations meetings like this is what I did. This is how I played as a child. And so she comes in.  And I have her sit down and I, I let her go, you know, as my employee, not as my mother, she's a fantastic mother, but I, I, I let her go and this woman breaks into a huge grid and says, I am so proud of you and the excellent decision that you made based on the information that you provided in the interview. Can I provide you some feedback and pro and proceed to critique me and teach me how to properly fire somebody at the tender age of six years old?

Oh my gosh. That's,  that's just a story. I love that. That's like, you know, people play school, they play store. You all played HR.  Like,

we did. Like, that's what my mom did. So I was like, I can do this. I can do HR. I played convention because she went to conventions and would let me tag along sometimes, and uh, my dad was an educator and still is, and so I, I, I played teacher too, but no, HR was my favorite game growing up. I

you know what though, that worked out for you, right? Like 

it was, training. Yeah, 

and even, you know, bless your mom, right? Like, that's so sweet. Like this is how you, you do this in a human centered way, probably led to your inclusion work and all the things. So I love that. 

my parents are astounding people and and I've told them, in fact, I've had other humans request that they write a book about parenting because what they did was so unusual and they just like when I started having all my neuro divergences  pop up. Right. They, they just steered into it. We're like, all right, cool.

Like no big deal. This is just who she is. And they taught me the strengths of those things. They taught me to accommodate myself. They taught me to just function as I naturally was. And there was no shame, no blame, no othering,  no anything. I just thought I was an amazing kid because that's what my. My parents taught me. And,  and so yeah, it, it's funny what actually got me into the inclusion work was when I realized other people hadn't had that and that other people didn't realize that you should respect someone and support them and who they actually are. That's how I got into that work. 

Oh, that's  I love that story. That's so powerful. That's so powerful. Like,  especially like we're being able to reflect back on those experiences and know that that's how you ended up  where you are. And I can resonate with that so much because I when I talk about my own story, right? I'm like,

I grew up in a very like, undiverse

part of Minnesota, here I am, you know,  this brown person in a sea of white, but everybody was confused.  People used to ask me if I was adopted, because my, my dad, Yeah, so my dad is a white man, blonde hair, blue eyes, very pale. We always joked with him and called him Casper. He thought it was hilarious, right? 

But, you know, my mom is the Latina Native American,  and so they'd see me with my dad. They're like, oh my god, that's my dad. They're like, yeah, yeah, I know that's your dad. But like,  Are you adopted?  And I was like, no, that's my dad. Like, I know, I know, but like, , it's really uncomfortable when you're in high school and you're like, no, like my parents had sex. 

Yeah, like that's a

weird thing to have to say to people.

like, you don't want to have to say that.  I don't want us to have to say that now.  You know what I mean? Like, 

but you know, even reflecting back on like who  the things I read, the things I experienced, the  perspectives that, um, were available to me in my education or lack thereof, all the way up until, , through college, almost all the way into my doctorate work, right? Like, I had  a wonderful professor in my undergraduate, but that's like one, when you think about that, like one,  so. 

crazy.

I, I think,  and I talk about this all the time, and this is why I love podcasts, because it's, to me, it's, it's a story. Everyone has a story. Humans have historically  Uh, related to each other through story and narrative and by sharing our stories is how other people  know they're less alone, that  other people think or feel this way, or there's a different way to move through the world.

So thinking of your experience with inclusion and they're like, Oh my gosh, not everybody got to. Yeah. 

not everybody got to have this. And, and I grew up in a rainbow family. Like, I had so many  situations, like different folks married in and all this. And so I just grew up like, oh, it's cool. We're all one big family. Like literally I'm in my  one big family of all these rainbow people. This is cool. And, um, I had family that had lived all over the world and, and all this.

So there was a very  different  sort of texture and flow to my childhood than other people get. And, um,  I, I think, and by the way, I feel you on the confusion about the race issue. So when it comes to your dad, so when I was very small. My, my native blood like really came out apparently and so I really looked like either a Hispanic child or a native child when I was very small. And even to the point that when I was born, I was born with brown eyes, which is unusual for Caucasian babies. And so, uh, like even the nurses at the hospital were like, Is that her dad? Because my dad's like over there blue eyed and like,  and my mom's like, yeah, that's, that's her dad. Um, and what's really funny about that is that that's actually where that native blood came from.  Just the way that it mixed in with my mom's genes, it just made me look super dark. And so there were some kind of like, I had people try to speak Spanish to me a lot growing up in Texas and all that. And I was like, sorry, I really wish I got you, but I don't. Um, but it's. It is, it is different because I had a very different texture, right?

I had a very different experience to, to my life, right? To, to the thing, to my flow. And, and so these concepts of treating, and my family is also very intentional and they, and they were intentional with everything. With everything, and it was even like my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, people would sit down and talk to me and have deep discussions with me from the time I was a small child. And it was, I was never treated like I shouldn't speak up or I shouldn't have an opinion or I shouldn't do these things. I was spoken to as an adult in the time I was. Like two years old, just, yes. Like, what do you need? What's going on with you? How was your day? You know, that kind of thing. And letting me have opinions in this, in serious discussions.

But I, like, I've tried to get them to remember, like, what my political opinions were at the age of three. But like, I was, I was, like, seriously engaged in these conversations. And so, I think that kind of upbringing shaped me to be able to, to think very differently and to have a different approach to other human beings.  And I want everyone to have that approach, because I feel like that's what's allowed me to  have the relationships I do, to have the success that I do. And I just see it as being a much more sustainable and healthy way of being. 

Like leaning into  the truth of who people are and respecting and honoring that individuality. is what we should all want and hope for, for ourselves. And  I, I'm sure you have thoughts on this, but you know, the current  rhetoric around, what, DEI and 

So many opinions. 

on what, you know,  They're trying to say what it is, but it's really not, and like inclusion, and  I mean, okay, let's talk about this for a second, because

do it. Let's do it. Let's hash it out.

I was like, you know what, I'm gonna talk about this for a second, just because, like when we're thinking about government looking at dismantling from a federal level,  DEI, and I'm not sure people recognize this also includes,  inclusion, like meaning also, like  people, persons with disabilities and IDEA,  it's everybody, right?

This isn't about the social construct of race, which is where people like to go when they think about, Diversity, equity and inclusion like it is just about race and it is not it is so much bigger than that. And I know you have, you know, if you all aren't connected, go find her on LinkedIn. She has some really great questions. 

Um,  you know, I know this is an area where you share and talk about it a lot. So let's, let's, let's chat a little bit 

Let's do it. So first of all, I'm going to actually fault the D, E, and I professional community for a little bit here on on one aspect of the one aspect of this, not the whole thing, but one aspect,  there was not  good  clarity or branding around this terminology. Over the last few years, there there were a lot of folks who would call themselves DEI experts.

I mean, that was actually like the title on their LinkedIn and things like that when they only focused on one thing. And there was a lot, there were a lot of people  who came out very hard for one group and would therefore then exclude. I would actually watch them exclude. Other groups and even when people are going, okay, so how do we like work together?

How do we it was like, no, no, this is like, I'm only talking about this. I said, okay, but here's the problem with that. I understand that this is your topic of expertise, but if you're not talking about how to blend that in and make it. work with other humans, then it's not functional, right? And it's actually not inclusion.

You're only just preaching about the rights for this group, which is fine, but then don't call that inclusion. And so there was a lot of, poor branding, like we should have all gotten together. I kept saying this, we should have all gotten together in like a zoom and like come up with a brand strategy for this movement, because it really ended up being very discombobulated and, and confusing. And have there been better messaging? I don't think there would be.  The level of confusion  that we have now.

Yeah. You know what? I agree with that. And I would also say, I think people claiming to be experts, um,  in D E I that. Are not have done more harm than good and and I'll say a lot of that to me came off the heels of   the incident with george floyd and all of those pieces and unfortunately Right like as i'm just gonna call what it is a money grab right for You know companies are thinking what am I going to do about that? 

Some of them got the most attention and didn't really address what the heart of the work  is, right, because, as a,  right, like, as a practitioner of this work for, over a couple decades, one of the things I always say is like, I, I know what I know, but I don't know what I don't know. And it's like a marathon, right?

It is not a sprint. I personally am not going to ever say I'm an expert in something. I don't even call myself an expert actually, because I don't know how you're an expert when you haven't had the lived experience of everyone else. Right? Like, so while I can specialize in this,  an expert is maybe not the quite the right terminology for this.

Kind of 

know,  I want to run this by you. So what I've been saying to people is that I'm a DE, as I'm inclusion, I'm sorry, I'm going to mess this up, is that I am an inclusion strategist. Specialist

like that's what I do so I come in. I understand the strategy of how to make inclusion work

and that's it.

And I can't be the only one doing it.  That's not going to work either. It requires collaboration. Yeah, and so, and all the voices, all the voices. And so I'm like, like, what you need is a strategist up

here, right? That then has, and that actually puts things into action and KPIs. That's another thing where the D and I folks, we all like a lot of us kind of, yeah.

fell off and didn't do enough of that. And have the, have the strategy, have the project management, have the KPIs, because there are KPIs to DE& I, and, and things that should be happening in the business if you are truly inclusive. And, and lead it that way. And then listen to all the other humans because that's how you get there.

And yes, I know some great starting points. There's a lot that I've learned, but it's, you still have to have those voices or you will miss something.

And inclusion is for everybody, like that's, that's how it should have been branded. Inclusion is for everybody. Nobody is left out of inclusion. It's

No, no one is. And I've had this conversation a lot with, , clients and people I've worked with. They're like, Oh, well we have this group of persons that don't agree with, I was like, they need to come to the table. You need everybody at the table.  You know, and I think what you're saying is really important.

Like when we're thinking about strategy and change management and how are those KPIs, right? Like, where's the accountability around this work? And it doesn't lie with the strategists you brought in, right? The. Organization has to take ownership of that because whenever you have anything and you have someone come in, which is great, because I do believe that it's very helpful to have an outsider come in versus asking,  free labor of your educator, your, employees or whomever, right?

That may do this work. This is not time for free labor, y'all. Well, it's never time for free labor, but that's a different 

That's another. That's another podcast.

That's a whole nother conversation, but you know, bringing someone else in to help lead the work, because that changes the dynamic, right? Because they bring a different lens and perspective and are able to ask some different questions, but they don't own the work they own, leading you through the process of the work.

And then you as the company, you as the school, the school district, the, whatever you are, right.

Yeah.

Whatever it is that you have going on.

the execution of it. Right. And the funding behind it.

and that's also where we fell apart. That's also where we fell apart, was that people, number one, DE& I strategists were not given  autonomy.  

 So, um, but the strategists were not given the autonomy to truly do their jobs and to say, no, this is what we're going to do, because that's what I've been hired to do. And so when they would come in and they would say, for instance, oh, this, this, and your hiring process is not  inclusive.

People would argue and then would be given their way. And so it's like, no, that, that wasn't a question. That was a statement. 

This is not inclusive.  Period. Now, how are we going to fix it? Is the question, right? And people, uh, you know, all these different leaders throughout the organization have the, uh, authority to push back and just say, no, well, now you don't have inclusion.

And now you're faulting the strategist because your people are not following through. It was just a debacle. And

again. A lot of it was, it was the autonomy, lack of project management, and lack of branding for what you're doing. Because if you go out to the people you're, you're helping and you say, this is what we're building, and we're going to build something where in the organization  that will increase wellness, that will increase positive communication, that will increase innovation and creativity, and that will ultimately boost productivity and efficiency.

And here's how, and here's all the numbers, and I have all that, but I won't get into that.  And then they go, Oh, okay. Right. And then you get buy in and then you relate it to how that's helpful to them.

Right. And then you also have to another big piece that we missed in the industry was that you have to help people  get past  these.  Unconscious, not just the unconscious bias, but the unconscious need to defend themselves and what, and not feel wrong. And I, I started doing a lot of research on that a few years ago and, and, uh, really dove into understanding the biological ecomechanism. That's actually the nickname and the medical and scientific community.

It's part of the fight or flight response.

And basically what happens is when you're, when something tells you that you're incorrect, your brain reads that as a threat.  And so it activates fight or flight, and you go into this whole mode where your brain is just throwing up defenses, like this is where you see the people on social media that argue beyond all reason, and they're just like, they've gone insane. That's what's happened. Their ego mechanism has activated, it's biological, every single human has it. It's nothing to feel guilty about, but we do have to learn how to control it.  And so those lessons are how I've started. Everything since then. I even did at the beginning of my talks. I get conventions. We go

through this and we turn off our ego mechanisms and I show people and people start to go, Oh, my God, I can feel it.

I can feel it turn on. And when you bring it to the conscious brain and you learn to recognize it, you can go, Okay, I don't need you. Thank you so much body, but we don't need you right now. Right. And you can turn off the toxic chemicals that come into your body and release happy chemicals. And then you have much better conversations. And so whenever you're, you know, Presenting something new whenever you're going to have to have a complicated conversation and tell somebody I'm sorry what you're doing is not inclusive, we need to fix it. Start with that. Start with let's come from a point of curiosity and let's turn off that ego mechanism so that we're not in fight or flight and we can actually reconstruct it.

Yeah. Is that Katherine?  Connected to? Like, but I'm a good person. Like that piece, like that 

Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah.

that's it. Because in their mind, you're like, I'm a good person. I'm a good person. And so that's what they're defending. And so if, and they're just stuck in that because that they feel like you're telling them that they're not a good person,

or they feel like their, their identity has been messed with.

And what's interesting is I've actually used this when talking to people who fight the gender identity.

So hard, right? I'm like, you know, okay, I'm going to say some things to you and I do and I get that defense activated. But I'm a good person. I'm a good person. I'm a Christian. I'm like,  you see that that's your identity.

And when someone has challenged your identity, do you see how that feels?  And all of a sudden, like this look of like, 

Oh, 

like, they get it like they because they've personally felt it. And I'm like, so okay, I said, because I disagreed with your identity. Do you see what that did to you? Do you see that fight or flight response that that activated?

And they're like, right.  Oh,  right. So it's you do  it all kind of ties into that people don't realize that these are all biological responses that we've just not learned to control that we need to get under control so that we can function. At a higher level and that's, that's where you see like the really extraordinary people out there that have learned to master that whether they, you know, consciously realize that's what's happening or not. And that's where you see those people that can just stay peaceful above like all sense and you're like, how are they not angry? How are they not raging? Right? These are people that have really learned to control their biological flow and that have mastered themselves and their own bodies and their own minds.

And those, those are the people that like I follow religiously. I'm like, how do they do it? I must learn this.  I must learn this. 

That is, I'm so intrigued and, and I'm intrigued.  For like so many reasons, because to me it also relates to,  you know, when we talk about implicit bias or other things like that, and every human has them, but no one wants to think they have bias, but again, it's like when you recognize it, then what do you do with it?

Now that I know this, , ego mechanism exists,  what do I do, because right, like again, it comes down to control, I am in control of me,

Yeah. You are.

that's about it, right, like,  you 

That's all you got. That's

all you can do. 

like, we are in control of very little, which sometimes is sad, but sometimes it's also very powerful, right, like, I can, um,  control that, like, I'm super intrigued by this, because, I mean, people have said to me, like, you are just always so, you know,  It takes a lot

Yeah.

Yeah. 

me here.

Like, but when I'm here and then I'm here, but you know, like,

I'm gonna say wait, like, don't, don't push it. There's a point.

There's a line. 

I can take a, I'm like, but when I go up here, like, watch out, but, um,  that's so interesting and I,

I think that's really good for people to know. And I, I, I really resonate with the idea of  relating to people.  About something about themselves  that may not be the exact topic, right? Because that's also that part of human connection.

Like, oh, I,  ooh, that made me feel some sort of way. I don't like feeling this way.

Yeah.

Like, wait a minute.

I could also understand  how another human wouldn't want To feel this way, because if we go back to gender identity,  and it's actually what's been happening just this week or, uh,  um, you know, that means those persons are having to live in a constant.

State.

Yeah. A fight or flight.

It's horrible. 

it's horrible. Like, your 

horrible. 

is  consistently under attack. 

Yeah, it's horrible. And this is, this is what I've explained to people when I, when I've, I've done, uh, I've done talks to conservative groups, which is so funny, like that I, this, this has come up multiple times, especially where I live here in Florida. And I let them know that it's a safe space and that they can ask any question that they want.

And they do, man, they

will, they will start asking the stuff that's really been on their brain. And,  you know, I, I've been asked a lot of questions about, well, what if you disagree with what the person is saying? Identifies as or their disability. I've actually had people like disagree with certain disabilities and, and all of this kind of thing. And I go,  or like, I disagree with how they approach race or whatever, whatever it is.  Okay. All right.  I said,  that means that your brain does not have all of the information it needs.  To make a decision. I said, would you start to get that? And I said, because I asked him, I said, how are you feeling when this happens?

Like, I feel frustrated. I feel confused because I said, aha, right there. That, that confusion. That's the source of your frustration. It's not their life. It's not their disability. It's not their gender. It's not their race. It's your confusion about the topic. I said, your brain is uncomfortable because it's in a situation where it doesn't have all the information. So that's why we start asking all of the questions. I'm not allowed to ask questions. I said, you are. It's how you do it. I said, I said, and sometimes people may not have the energy for it in that moment. Right. But, but you are curiosity is how we overcome these things. Right. And how we, and when we engage with people and their curiosity,  that's important because that gives them that information and we can we can calm the nerves.

But I talked to people about how to do research to help answer some of these questions and how to, you know, how to work through this and, um, and owning our own responses,    To these other people and, and how this is going and, and also I've talked about finding the common mission and that's been real interesting.

So I had, I was speaking to a group and I said, okay, I'm going to bring up a very controversial topic. It's okay. We're not going to like dive into a hardcore, but I want to make a point. And they're like, okay, you know, everybody kind of clenched up

Everybody's like, uh, 

and I go, no, I said how to treat transgender children and everyone just like, you could see it like clenched out.

Right. And I go. Okay, so one quote side  is concerned about,  you know,  physical well being and making sure that we're guiding children properly and I kind of threw out some of the,  you see some of the, and the other side is really concerned about suicidality,  mental health, um, making children feel validated and, and comfortable with who they are, you know, making them feel welcome,  other people notice it, but I hear is that you all care about children and their well being.  And everybody got, like, so still for a minute and I went, yeah, like, everybody started nodding

together. I said, everybody here cares about children and about making sure that they are taken care of and elevated and safe and all that. I said, yeah. I said, so you all have the same mission. You just have a different idea of how to get there, I said, and if you come at it from that perspective, understanding that you are, in fact, on the same side, there are not two sides, there are two varying paths to get there, right?

And if you come at it from, we have the same mission and establish that mission. Then you can always bring things back and when things start to get heated, go, wait a minute, let's revisit our mission and reread, like write it down and reread the mission of the conversation. And even do this with your loved ones.

I tell people to even do this with your loved ones. If you're going to have a heated conversation, discover the mission of it first, and then you can bring everything back and remember that you're on the same team so that there's no need for that fight or flight. And you can just get curious and engage and find solutions. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah.

That's amazing Katherine. , that is super powerful and it, it,  it's so true. It is, it is so, so true about that, about various other things. I think about a lot of work I've done with educators, especially some where they're critiquing families and, you know, how they, their perception of how they're, raising their kids.

And I'm like, look. 99. 9 percent of parents are trying to do what's best for their kids.

Yeah.

You are wanting what's best  for their child as an educator.

Yes.

Just exactly what you're talking about. But I like 

Yeah. 

I like the wording of the mission, right? Like, our 

mission  

Yeah. 

is to do what's best for this child and to raise them to be, you know, 

Yes, it's

You 

so simple.

Independent, intellectual, 

Yes. 

productive 

member of society, right? That's what 

Yes. Yes. And, and I, where I cross the line into true frustration is the people who  just want to fight. They choose the fight. They choose that. And there are people who actively choose it. I, I get feisty when people actively choose hate.

Oh, 

I get like, I like, no, no, like you've been given an opportunity to back off of the stance and you're digging in.

Yeah. No. And in fact, like, you know, I get, I've gotten some flack about,  I do, I have this talk called fire the jerk  and it's all about getting rid of it, which shouldn't get pushed back. I feel like, um, but it's all

Right?

Like, 

are you all want to keep working with the jerk? Like, I don't. 

That's what I've said. I'm like, do you really want to work with a jerk? Well, how do you determine a jerk versus, you know, some misunderstandings.  It's real easy. I got an answer for that. And it works every single time. It's how do they respond when you confront them about what's happened.  you come at them in a respectful tone and just say, hey, just so you know, this is what's gone on.

Do they dig in?  Do they get feisty? Then that's a jerk.  Now, if they come at it like, Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean that. Like, okay, how do I get better? Like, that's not a jerk. That's a misunderstand, right? That's, it's real easy to spot. It's real easy to spot.  And that person that digs in,  they need to go.  In fact, I have fired people in those meetings.

With the full intention of healing the situation, when I go in and that's the response I get, you're out.  you are toxic, you're going to perpetuate this, and I'm done with you.  That's it. You're out. Because I take care of the whole, I take care of my team above all else. They are my primary. And, uh, and so it's funny because like I get, and so whenever I meet a jerk in life, I do the same thing.

I just fire them. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're family. I don't care if you're friends. I don't care if you're, you know, whatever, whoever you are, you are, you are God. The second that you've proven that all you care about is  being hateful and being ugly and that kind of thing, I'm out. 

Yeah. 

Like, no, I reject you. I completely reject you.  Like, just be gone from you.

Yes. Yes. Well, you gotta protect your peace, right? And there's a difference between,  like you said,  I'm just not going to change my mind no matter what. And I'm just going to fight to be fighting, you know, and we've all seen,

deal with that, 

we've all seen those people,

we all have, we all have,

and when people,  I also have  zero tolerance, and this is something I have to work on, like this is me telling on myself right here, I have like zero tolerance for people who use rhetoric as though it were fact.  And I just just before hopping on the comments and on a LinkedIn post, which I rarely do about anything political, but I was like, okay, can we just bring this back to back and not use the emotional side of that?

Because she, this woman had posted something about, um,  uh, you know. A quote, a quote from a politician that said something about, no, no woman has the right to end the life of a developing child. I said, whoa, nobody's talking about killing children like you really  just simmer out. I was like, a developing child means a child in the development stages, which is a born child that is alive like that is indisputably like living and breathing and living life.

Like that's, that's actually the terminology used. For, for a

certain stage of childhood. I was like, nobody is talking about that. I was like, please take this down. I said, if you want to have an opinion about abortion and fetuses and embryos, cool. Like, I'm like, there's, you know, there's great arguments on both sides.

Like, I understand. It's fine. But please. post accurate rhetoric.  I, I can't, like, I cannot, I cannot with that.   Let's be accurate about what it is that we're saying, you know, and denying science will, send me, right over the edge. Like, just, just right, 

My brain just totally went to one of the presidential debates.  Where like one of the, um, moderators had to be like  in no state, is it legal to kill a born child? Like,

He literally had to say that,

like,

and then, and then he kept

having to auto correct, yeah, certain

I was like,

 Even, even with the whole, like, like, gender and sex thing and all that, just. This executive order that just came out. I'm like, okay,  scientifically,  medically, there are more than two sexes, like, here is the information.

I cited my sources. I did a whole post about it on TikTok. I'm like, no, there's factually more.  It's not that complicated and a lot of people don't know that 137 million people, give or take, uh, in the world are, are,  possessing intersex traits. That's a lot of people,  a lot of people. And,  I have a whole theory around that and gender identity.

But anyway , that's again, a whole other podcast, but 

this happens on every show of 

mine 

But it's the science.  But it's about science. I'm like, but scientifically, this,  this is not correct. And, and that bothers me. And I'm like, Oh, because science,  science is a thing. And, um, it's, and I like to, I like to be, you know, real factual about things.

And I also, I bust people for, giving stats. Okay, where did you hear that? And they can't tell you said okay, then please don't quote those stats. If you do not know where you found them, if you can't, if it's not a valid source, because I don't know where you're getting that, like, this is a, this is a potentially inflammatory number.

Let's not, let's not use that,  um, yeah, fact. I don't know. It just bugs me. That's, that's the thing that can send you over the edge. And then I forget my ego mechanism and I get real, I get real hostile. So, you know, we're all human. 

I, you know what I, I say, we're like. We're all a work in progress. we all have the things like that, that we're, working on. I mean, I can relate to that. I'll be like, what are you reposting? Like, this isn't even like, this isn't even true. Like, why are you like, could, could we look up some information like 

My all time favorite was somebody quoting a meme, citing a meme as a source. That was my all time favorite. I was like, What? Like, no. I can't with this situation.

I can't.

I think the lesson here is for us all to be aware of what triggers our ego mechanism, right? Like, 

Yes, be aware. 

If we could all be a little more cognizant of the information we're sharing or resharing and that it's not disinformation, that would be fab. Uh, we would love that. That would, 

And DE& I, we need to rebrand DE& I. I have a suggestion for this. I don't know if you saw my post on this. I have a suggestion for rebranding DE& I to keep it alive and to actually improve it. And,  and I really think that if we come at this, I wrote a, I wrote a little mini book to just kind of get, get a, Like a starting point for folks called, uh, and it's about universal workplace design and it's based on the idea of universal design, which is an old architectural and concept and applying it to workplace design.

And it gets you inclusion and I'm like, if we just rebrand. And use different words,

 And we can use different words. Like I'm not married to my words, but if we use different words and if we put it in an action like project management type situation and we have KPIs to it, I think we can get more folks behind this again. But we have to rebrand it now because now it's got yuckiness associated with it. So let's rebrand it. Let's have unified branding for once, please. And let's move forward. I think we need to I think we need to, as strategists, get more strategy behind  deploying our strategy in the

we need a,

way too much, but

yes. That's,  we need a strategy to get together to determine our strategy 

to move forward. But we, we, we really do, but I, I agree with that. And, you know, I just did my like 49 things because I just turned 49 for 49. And like number 10 was like, DEI is not, , doesn't matter who's in office.

And I, and I just want people to know this. This work has been around for  a long time.

Long time. It's it's not really going to leave.  We're going to probably restructure what we call it, but it is still at the end of the day about being  good, decent humans to the other humans that walk on this earth, recognizing their individuality, their strengths, and honoring these people, right?

Like at the end of the day, that is what that is.  And

well, you know,  dismantling the systems that perpetuate inequities.  

Yeah. I guess. And

dismantling this idea that somehow infliction is the same thing as inclusion, and it's not. I'm like, no, infliction is when you make other people be like you, and that's not.  That's not okay either. Inclusion  is when we respect other people, and that includes using their pronouns, you know, honoring their disability and the accommodations that they need, because that's about them, right? You can do whatever you want to do, but they get to do that, and we're going to be respectful of all the humans. 

which brings us to like the belonging piece, right? you can't say you have  a culture of belonging  if you don't have inclusion and aren't doing those things. If people don't feel safe  to be in your space as who they are, then there is not a culture of belonging.  Like, belonging isn't they drank your Kool Aid and are doing exactly what you want.

Like,

Not it. No.

not it. 

That's, I have a 

is, you're respecting all these individuals. That's belonging. So I just needed, I, you know, I just need 

Be respectful. you know what inclusion about? Whenever people ask me, what is inclusion about? Like, it's about freedom. It's about equality. It's about respect. It's about integrity.  And if you are for those four things, then you should be for inclusion.  Just saying.

amen. Amen. We're gonna,  you know what? I love that. And, um, I, I feel like I could talk to you for hours, Katherine, of course.  Whether my listeners would listen for hours, I don't know. But, I do, probably not. I  really do want to thank you for being on today. And I usually like to wrap up with my guests giving like a a pro tip or an idea.

I mean, I feel like you've had so many, but I want to know what you want to share.

I've got you. So I'm going to tell you the very quick mini version of how to recognize and turn off your ego mechanism.

So to recognize it, go ahead and find things that you know will activate it. Like go read those posts that you know you're going to disagree with that gets you super hot, right? and recognize where you feel it in your body. It's going, but you need to do this for yourself. Don't just take my word for it because everybody feels it a little bit differently and you have to bring it to your conscious brain. So go do this and you'll realize that you feel it somewhere on the base of the neck, top of the neck, shoulders, that area, right? Feel it. Then take a break. Do it again. Take a break. Do it again. Get it to where your body, you recognize it and your body is alerted that when this happens, I want to do something about it. This will move the process into your conscious brain. This takes only a few minutes to do. Then  take another like four to five minutes and come up with a very simple action. And for me, it's pressing these two fingers together at my, my middle finger and my thumb for about two seconds. And when you do that, just do that action and think when I do this, I have shelter, I have food in the pantry. I am safe. I have oxygen to breathe and I am well. And when you do that, and you have to actually think this repetitively and do this over and over and over again, about four to five minutes. And what will happen is your body will associate that action with releasing of serotonin, and then go back and purposely activate your ego mechanism again, recognize it and say, I see you ego mechanism, and then do your action and you will Feel that the bad chemicals stop the adrenaline stop and you will feel the serotonin release and the calm. And then from then on, moving forward, whenever you start to feel hot and you want to simmer down, all you have to do is that action and your body will respond and give you the healthy chemicals that you want. 

is such a great tip. I want everyone to go do this and try this and let us know how that's working for you because it is, Oh, I just love that. I love that. Thank you, Katherine. So much for being on the show with me today. I have enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. Listeners, please go ahead and, you know, like, share and subscribe to the podcast.

See you soon.