Equity Under Fire: Why We Can’t Stay Silent

In this powerful episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean is joined by Dr. Shelly Jones Holt, founder and CEO of Leadership Legacy, for a courageous conversation that reframes what equity means in education, leadership, and society. They dive deep into neurodiversity, the myth of meritocracy, the impact of epigenetic trauma, and why authentic leadership requires discomfort.

Together, they unpack:

• The roots of equity as a people-centered movement
• How epigenetics and historical trauma affect generational outcomes
• Why poor white communities must be included in the equity conversation
• How educators and leaders can navigate discomfort to push for liberation
• The power of family leadership and how bias starts at home
• Neurodiverse brilliance and shifting social norms in the workplace

This episode is both unflinching and hopeful—offering real-world insights for school leaders, DEI professionals, educators, and anyone working toward systemic change.

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Transcript

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Dr 0:35

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity Hour with me, your host, Dr. Tami Dean. I am super excited to, of course, introduce our guest this week. We have with us Dr. Shelly Jones Holtz, and she is the founder and CEO of Leadership Legacy. Dr. Shelly is dedicated to fostering equity and inclusion in education. Her goal is to support and empower all students, families, and educators by creating environments where everyone feels valued and respected. Yes, she strives to break down barriers and ensure that every individual has an opportunity to thrive. So welcome Dr. Shelly.

Dr. Shelly 1:19

Thank you so much Dr. Tami. I am so glad to be here. I, I loved our initial conversation. And I'm really excited to see what we're gonna come up with and put out to the world in this hour. It's, it, it's an awesome time to be courageous leader, focused on all people getting what they need, when they need it, and the way they need it. Delivered

Dr 1:39

Oh, absolutely. And I think that's so important, just even to start off the fact like all people, because I think sometimes the narrative with equity and this work gets shifted that we're only talking about a very small subset of people, but that's not the truth at all.

Dr. Shelly 1:59

Not at all. And that, and I think that that's part of the misnomer and, you know, uh, the propaganda that folks are playing with. I don't deal in propaganda. Let's deal in facts. And the truth of the matter is everybody hasn't always gotten what they need to be successful because we need different things to be successful, all of us as human beings. And sometimes it's because of our gender. Sometimes it's because of a medical status. Sometimes it's because of our identity and the way the world sees us. But whatever the reason we in America have been founded and, and we believe a whole in this idea that everybody should have an opportunity. That's what this country was founded upon.

Dr 2:43

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly 2:43

as we've been progressing, there's been a lot of movement. ensuring that we correct some of the systemic harms that have led to people not being able to get these things. And right now, we're in a time where that is being tested and we're, have to see, as a society, are we gonna pass this test or are we gonna let our ancestors down and not move this work forward? And it's not gonna be easy, but it needs to be done.

Dr 3:10

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I wanna come back to something you said there in just in just a minute, but I wanna start, um, I always ask my guests to tell a little bit like this. I know the short version because I know mine is long. I know yours is long. Um, how did you first get started? Like what was your like equity journey and path? Because I always think people think it's like a one and done or it's like a quick thing, but really it is a marathon if we're going to use that analogy. And there's always something to learn. There's always someone to connect with, and so share a little bit about your journey to this work, if you don't mind.

Dr. Shelly 3:49

My journey. Like most it, it's convoluted, but I will say it is based in this idea of ensuring that we put people first, and that's always been at the core of who I am, is that we put people and their needs first. And I remember my first, my first really big recollection that there were definitely some inequities was when I was a teenager and I had to, I learned and then I had to go, or I figured out, I should say, or was told, I don't know what an OB GYN was and what this all entailed. And that was a thing for me. I'm like, they're gonna do what? Where? Huh? Like, I was trying to wrap my mind around it. And when I finally did, I was like, okay, well if I have to do this, like if this is a thing Yeah. has to be done, I would like to go in and talk with a woman who looks like me. Yeah. and so I'm in Oakland, California. At the time I was going to Berkeley, um, and literally in all of Oakland, I couldn't find, not Alameda, all this whole Northern California area. I couldn't find one black O-B-G-Y-N. There was one black nurse practitioner, Kaiser. And I literally went and sat outside of her office to beg her to take me onto her roster. Oh my gosh. ma'am, I don't know what this is gonna entail. Like literally, but I need to talk to somebody that looks like me. And I, and she was so like, taken aback that I was like, good. Literally just stalking out because I'm like, this is not a thing that is normal in my mind. Like, remember, Yeah. 16, 17, 18-year-old brain going, now you're gonna have to put something where and look at why and how. And so that was my first real idea that, wait a minute, why can't I find everybody else can find somebody to go to that looks like Yeah. of my Asian friends could find somebody. Remember I'm at Berkeley. Um, you know, my white friends could find folks. And when I would talk to them about it, they were like, wait a minute, nobody like to the, where it became a thing in the dorms, like everybody everybody's trying to look. Yeah. We're all gonna look. And we were like, oh my gosh, there's nobody. And so that was one of my first like entrances into, well wait a minute, we all don't get to do and receive the same services. Hmm. seeing, um, I became a health educator at Berkeley, and seeing the way that different people were impacted by different sexually transmitted diseases. And I was like, whoa, this is not hitting everybody in the same way. The situations are not the same. And you know, of course, I have further back history and for forward history, but I think those were probably two of the most significant moments was realizing that going into the medical field, um, there wasn't people that looked like us. So I initially was going to become a medical doctor. And then I realized I couldn't stand the side of fit. And that was something I just, I was like, oh, so yeah, this, this is, you don't want me to do that? I, Like, maybe not. Maybe not. know, cringing at the side, at the thought of touching you. Like, that's not gonna work. Swear. so I went in, right. I really wanna, but. Like that's a fluid. Mm. I'm not sure. Yeah. Right. You don't want me to do that. So I ended up becoming an educator and then a leader in the education field because I figured if I can't help people directly with, you know, the, the Mm-hmm. I can at least help build and raise and teach the future doctors of the world and ensuring that more young people who look like me were able to go get into medical school and become practitioners in this field. Um, and so that's part of my equity journey, but I will say it had to do with not being able to get the services that were so readily available to my peers and trying to do something about that,

Dr 7:51

Yeah, and I think that that's such a good point because if we think about then who influences, how do we respond? To people, right? Or what research gets funded or Right. How we understand the nuance of who's more susceptible, like back to the diseases you were talking about, Yes, If we don't have diversity in those spaces, then we're not gonna get the diversity of solution either, right?

Dr. Shelly 8:23

And well, and also recognizing that in that diversity of solution, what works for some people does not work for other people. And sometimes those differences fall along racial lines. And usually when it falls along racial lines or um, or nationality lines, don't get an unbiased approach here in America. Mm-hmm. the pro is one of the biggest problems, is that we need an unbiased approach to things like education, like medic medicine and other, public service and public health fields, because we are different. Yes, we all may bleed red, but the, the contents and the makeup and the genetic, um, uh, impact. Or the genetic genetics that I have are different from anyone else. that is not just our racial lines. That's on an individual level. When you start looking at symp different symptomatic diseases and different ways that diseases have hit people, when you start talking about things like epigenetics with ma, which many people are not as familiar with, and how the trauma that that hits people can impact your DNA and therefore travel from mother to child. And when we think about the impact of epigenetics, if it only takes one generation to shift your DN DNA as it did with survivors of the Holocaust, imagine what's happened with those who have survived the American enslavement. That was, you know, foundational to this country. One generation with our Jewish brethren, we saw genetic impacts that lessen their ability to handle stress and trauma. What do you think happens after 400 years and 25 or 30 generations? Right. the, the like, the idea that yes, we are all human beings and we have, we have the right to have opportunities is a very, uh, basic one. It's one that most people say, yeah, if you work hard, you, you should have the opportunities, but the reality of what that actually means and looks like in practice and what that means for having to look at your practice differently as a teacher. where I decided to go into, I had to teach my kids differently. I had kids that came in that spoke different languages. Some kids that came in that had, um, learning differences, some kids that had familial trauma and weren't eating in the morning or didn't have, you know, clean clothes. And, you know, these basic necessities and those, every one of those types of children are going to learn differently. It makes sense that they would also need differences in other things going all the way to the medical field and the workplace. And if we are abandoning or misunderstanding or misinterpreting this idea of equity being, getting people what they need, we become part of the problem. And so Yeah. just glad that we're continuing this conversation even amidst some of the pushback that it's getting. But let's be honest, uh, progress. Progress has always gotten pushback. Let's

Dr 11:28

I was like, this is not new. I keep saying this to people, I was like, look, this is not new. It may be a little more in our face for those of us that did not grow up in the civil rights era. Right. Um, but it was all in everybody's faces for quite some time. Right. This pushback is not new. It maybe went under, I don't even wanna say under the radar, 'cause I don't even really think it was, no, it wasn't as in your face.

Dr. Shelly 11:54

Yeah. believe that it was there. I think we really, and I, and I can confess to this too, like I want in my heart to believe that we are farther ahead than the civil rights era. And I think that right now it's reminded us honey ain't much changed. And we were, I think we had a belief that we, it had, Hmm. it had Yeah. it.

Dr 12:16

Yeah. I, I have so many thoughts right now, like, one of them being right, like we, there was this idea that we were in this post-racial society because we elected Barack Obama, right? Um, that answer is no. All of this is actually a response to the fact that we did elect Barack Obama because it's disrupting the privilege status that people have become so accustomed to, and the systems that they feel like that they don't even always realize, right? Support them in ways that don't support others. So yes. two things that come to mind. One, when we're thinking about groups of people, I think the challenge, especially when we think about, well, I'm just gonna stick with educators for right now, but really with any group, is we think about cultural competence. So it's very easy to be like, oh, I am like this. All students that look like me have had the same experience, or I have ex-friend and this is my understanding of a particular group. And so now I, project, for lack of a better word, my understanding onto others that may, I may come across. But I think one of the things that you said that was really important is right, like within this broader umbrella, there is individuality for everyone. And if we focus on the individual and supporting what each individual needs, then we're all gonna come out ahead. So like put your assumption assumptions aside, right?

Dr. Shelly 14:00

I mean, well, and start focusing on people, uh, and their needs as not being a crutch or a problem, but as being actually the solution. I've, Yes. had the pleasure of being able to, run very large departments, school districts, organizations, and to support some amazing executive leaders. And I think one of the biggest shifts in mindset that successful executives versus unsuccessful executives have is that they see those differences in needs and, and, and their abilities to function and operate in the gifts that people bring as assets versus that need to be cultivated and built and nurtured versus deficits that need to be handled or put away or set aside. Hmm. I mean, we are in an era right now where a lot of our, um, young people, and well, I'll say people of all ages who are blessed with autism are all of a sudden now in a space of place where we can acknowledge that there are many people with autism that are absolutely brilliant. Oh yes. because they may not have the same social, the social prowess, if you will, to be able to navigate some of these faces in certain ways as we expect them to, doesn't mean that what they bring to the table isn't extremely valuable and necessary. And so we're gonna have to work through some of those social norms, those quirks, those things that, you know, people do that are different. And I think it's, we're seeing this, especially in the AI era and in the technology era that we're in, where we're saying, Hey, you might not have the, social skills or the, and I'm being very, um. very stereotypical, simply because that's what my son who is blessed with autism, his thing is the social skills. So that's what I'm most familiar with, but I wanna Yeah. clear that it's an entire spectrum and there are all kinds of different, I call them quirks because that's what I see them as is they'll have, quirks and ticks and challenges that we have to work through that make them a bit different, that make interacting with these young people, um, a little bit more of a task on the part of Yeah. that's interacting. Like, huh, I gotta figure out what's going on here. But in the end, when you look at the benefit, because of the, they think and operate so differently from the rest of us, that's exactly what we need to solve. Some of the complex problems Cool. to face or that we are facing. And I think we're seeing an era right now where people are not sure how to deal with our neurodiverse population, but they're recognizing like, but we need to, because you know that, that that person over there that, may have all the social quirks, knows how to work some things with computers that, most of us may not even have

Dr 16:53

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 16:53

the synapses or the patients, if you will, to deal with. But we're also seeing that there's an ugly side to this that we have, that we have to curtail in what we're seeing that's happening next to our government. Um, and that we know Elon Musk is definitely on the spectrum, but it can also go to a very shadowy side. And so there's just so much that right now when this equity movement, we need to process and understand as a people that we can't throw people away or dismiss them or, you know, toss them aside because they are different. And that's something that America has been doing for a long time. I mean, you, you Oh yeah. the stories Well, who would get pregnant and we would throw them, to these Catholic whatevers, you

Dr 17:36

we go hide them away. Right?

Dr. Shelly 17:38

Like, them away

Dr 17:39

or shame them, but not the, I mean, they didn't do that by themselves. Like the, they needed some help, right? Like, but this idea, I, I, we gotta fix, I. Fix. And I'm doing air quotes right now, y'all. 'cause you can't see me. doing right Right? people. fix people. We don't need to fix people. We, we need to. not people Yes. problems. And to be quite frank, we all have our own individual quirks and nuances. Right? And I mean also, who says, who says that this is the way we need to move through the world, right? When we think about who has power in setting social norms, right? And what those expectations are, who has that power? So how are we to say that what someone else is doing is quote unquote wrong? I mean, it's not wrong. It's part of the diversity of humanity.

Dr. Shelly 18:53

Yes. But it's also a, uh, I mean there, think that sometimes when those differences fall along cultural

Dr 18:59

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly 19:00

we struggle. And, and what it, what you just said made me think of, um, I am falling in love with this young lady, Jasmine Crockett, who is just showing out like no other.

Dr 19:12

Yes.

Dr. Shelly 19:12

my oldest son is in law school right now at University of Alabama. Right. And we have these wonderful conversations and you know about a. I, uh, we got on the phone and she had just done something, something that she had just told somebody about themselves in the best ways that black women always do. Right. I'm just so excited I'm watching off you. I'm like, go ahead baby. Just, just,

Dr 19:34

Yes.

Dr. Shelly 19:35

I mean, like, I, you make me wanna come to Texas and vote wherever you are just to make sure that you could continue to do what you're doing

Dr 19:42

Right, right.

Dr. Shelly 19:42

she is a just, she's disrupting the system. Well, he and I had a very interesting conversation and he's like, mom, like, one of a few of her professors that she had in law school are also professors at University of Alabama now and are speaking about her. And, um, said, well, mom, they're saying that, you know, we need to not be like her. And I'm like, well, help me understand. He is like inside the legal field, they're very, critical of her and saying that if you wanna be heard and you wanna be, effective, you need not be like her. And my initial thought was, hold up, hold up. Because she's operating authentically as who she

Dr 20:21

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly 20:21

and we are a different kind of people as African Americans, and I'm saying that's different from Africans that are in America. That's different from people who have more of the vanilla persuasion in America and have been able to operate as the privilege of white like this. She's operating in her true self.

Dr 20:40

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 20:41

is an educated woman, but she's also one who's not going to sit here and play these little games that you all like to pay play to maintain power. She is speaking her truths and speaking truth to power. She's accurate, unfortunately for them. She's often right and that's, you know, messing with folks right now because it's like, well, yeah, she's right, but she's not saying it nicely. I'm But whoa, whoa. Hold up. I'm gonna need you to, uh, like, I'm gonna need us to roll back yeah. idea, and I'm going into this idea of the social norms. This idea of being nice and being, polite or whatever that is that we wanna say. Let's be honest, that has not worked very well. Polite people in history have not often made pain and created difference. And, you know, and, and he said more than just polite. I, I'm, I'm

Dr 21:30

Well, yeah, that's that. Like well behaved women rarely make history, right. But again, polite. Polite is code for silence. Like, so she's like navigating two areas, right? As a woman, right? And then as a black woman, right? In a, in, in a, in a place where she can have her voice. And that makes people so uncomfortable. It, it really does. Like, or she asks a question and it's a valid question, I mean. I'm sure you've experienced this. I've experienced this. Someone's like, well, I would like you to use your voice for positive instead of, you know, pushing back. I was like, it's a question. Asking a question isn't inherently negative, but if you are uncomfortable with me asking the question, that means I've probably hit on some truth that you don't want to reveal.

Dr. Shelly 22:25

and I think that we need to distinguish. I love the fact that you used the word uncomfortable because you're uncomfortable with it. It does not mean you are unsafe and therefore need to be on the defensive

Dr 22:35

Yes.

Dr. Shelly 22:36

because you get uncomfortable you may not know the answer to the question, you may not, you know, like what that question is implying because it's something that you may not want to face. It's something that is contradictory to who you believe you are. of this can be true and you can still be uncomfortable and be safe in the space. And that there's a difference though. And we have misconstrued lack of safety for lack of comfort, and that has caused some huge issues in our society Yeah. when we are unsafe, we feel like we need profe protection. Somebody needs to come and save us if we're unsafe. If you're uncomfortable, that means you need to put your big girl panties on or your big boy pan pants on Yeah. with whatever is in front of you, even if you may be unsure how or what the result is going to be. The those two are very different situations and saving people from uncomfortable situations is what has gotten us this far in this mess that we're in. We're saving people from having to answer the hard questions. Let's answer something like, what if epigenetic trauma has had an impact on black bodies and Jewish bodies? How is that same trauma of beating, raping, lynching people for generations, what has that done to your DNA? What has that done to your ability to feel empathy? What has that done to your ability to see the world through different perspectives? could that be an issue that is not something for the minoritized to deal with? That is something for the larger population, the dominant group to deal with. If it's changed my ancestry, what's to say that it hasn't changed yours? Yeah. are uncomfortable topics and conversations for folks. Whereas when I say have the epigenetic conversation about what's happened to people who have been harmed, we can have that conversation. Even though it's a little uncomfortable, folks can Yeah. in it. When we start talking about the people who have done the harm and whether or not, 'cause the question I ask is, if you have this kind of history, if you have this kind of, of DNA in your body. Are you fit to lead and are you fit to lead people who you, you or your ancestry have traditionally seen as less than human? Mm-hmm. should you be doing before you step into a position of leadership, especially of diverse communities? See, these are conversations again, they make the power structure very uncomfortable, but they're not unsafe. You Yeah. not like the answer. You got to give.

Dr 25:15

Yes, yes and no. A hundred percent and. I think a way for people that are new to the work or are trying to think about how this applies to them in uncomfortableness is where growth happens. If you aren't uncomfortable, you're not growing. So if you start a new workout regimen, Here we go. right. to, I admit. I need to. I'm, I'm in that space. Girl, you are speaking my language. I started Pilates in February and I am in love. Okay. So yes. So I'll just use myself, right? Like I'm a hundred days into my Pilates journey. There are some things that I can do pretty well, but then they make some small tweak or I learn some small new thing and it's uncomfortable. My muscles are uncomfortable, but my, the change happens when I push through the uncomfort. To get to the next level, and I have to continue when the next uncomfortable moment or feeling comes continue to push forward. And I think that is how you can think about this work when a moment of uncomfortableness comes up, hold on, right? Like and push through and you're gonna learn something, you're gonna move to the next, you know, level, for lack of a better word. That's where this work is a journey, right? I've been doing this for 25 years and I won't say the conversations make me uncomfortable anymore, but I am willing to, when I learn something or something is brought up to me that I didn't know, I didn't know, Yes. you can't know everything, right?

Dr. Shelly 27:00

Dr. Tami, you are speaking truth to life in every way. I mean, um, I didn't really talk too much about this, but my, my main job now is as an executive leadership coach, and Yeah. the things I say at Leadership Legacy Consulting, we do the journey deliberation, which is what we say is that this journey that you are on to liberation, which is a higher level, a deeper level of freedom, Yeah. is one thing that's just taking the shackles off of your body. And what's physically I impacting you? Oftentimes, or the legal, uh, pieces, the politics, but liberation is freedom of the mind. Hmm. is finally free, you're in a whole nother level. And one of the things that we say in our work is that the courageous leadership that you seek and courageous leadership, which is our signature program, is, um, courageous means to push through fear. Leadership being to serve. You have to push through fear if you are going to be of service to others, and the courageous leadership you seek is on the other side of the discomfort you covet and this and, and so, or the comfort you covet.

Dr 28:08

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 28:09

have to push forward through that discomfort. I'm gonna say that one more time the courageous leadership you seek is on the other side of the comfort you covet.. When we stop coveting, comfort and embrace at the experience of discomfort. 'cause oftentimes, Glenn Singleton speaks about this in his agreements for courageous conversations about race, that if we can truly get to a place where we experience discomfort, I mean, and let's be honest, we don't like to be uncomfortable.

Dr 28:38

No.

Dr. Shelly 28:39

we have fans, we have, you know, water bottles, we have cushy seats, we do all kinds of things so that we are not uncomfortable in any way, shape, or form. Right? But it's through the discomfort that the growth happens. It's through the discomfort that you realize what you're really capable of.

Dr 28:57

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly 28:58

the discomfort that you realize what you fear was gonna break, you actually helped make you like, these are the things that you realize. And if you are always sitting here trying to push back the discomfort. And that's one of the challenges, and I'm just gonna say it out loud, it's one of the challenges of Eurocentric culture is that Eurocentric cultures have traditionally. uh, uh, celebrated just success, but not necessarily the journey or the

Dr 29:24

Mm.

Dr. Shelly 29:24

that success. They celebrate what it is that, the image that you're supposed to project, but not necessarily all the struggles that created that image. Whereas many collectivist cultures, whereas African American culture is more of a collectivist culture, we actually celebrate the struggle. We wanna put the issue in the middle of the room and have everybody talk about it. Yeah. wanna see like all the ugly sides. 'cause that's where we know we can see the growth. Like, oh, you went through that, that, that, and you still, okay, that's inspirational. Whereas oftentimes in Eurocentric culture, it's, well, don't tell 'em the struggle, the struggle. Don't tell 'em how hard it was just so that you did it right and you overcame. That's where that image of success, uh, versus the journey to success. At which do you value more? We tend to value the journey. other people tend to value the image or the power that comes with it. And so this discomfort piece that we're hitting on is a big issue in the equity world because when everybody is getting what they need, when you have to do something different for somebody else, if your mindset isn't in a place where you're saying, I'm willing to do, like if Dr. Tami needs something and I gotta do something different so Dr. Tami can be successful, then I'm, I'm actually happy to do that. But if I feel like, well, I have to do something so I'm losing out so that Dr. Tami can win, then the mindset because, well, that's not Dr. Tami's issue. She gotta deal with that versus it is our issue to be collectively successful, even at something like a podcast, we have to make sure we are meeting each other's needs. If that doesn't happen, then it doesn't become an enjoyable and productive experience. The same thing applies, I would argue, in every situation where you have more than one person trying to accomplish a task,

Dr 31:13

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 31:14

have to be able to meet one another's needs, even if that means it's gonna take a little bit of extra effort on your part to make sure the next person has what they need. If you see that as a deficit and a problem versus part of the process and the journey to success, therein lies the difference.

Dr 31:31

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 31:31

see it as a problem something you're taking away from me, I'm less likely to do it. But Yeah, it as an enhancement to, if I put, provide this for Dr. Tami, this is what it'll bring back for me, and even if it doesn't bring anything back for me, it's gonna make Dr. Tami successful, which means that we are successful. Right? That's a different mindset. think we have to talk about the discomfort sometimes that exists in ensuring that somebody else gets something, even if you get nothing from it, other than to make sure that they're okay.

Dr 32:04

yeah. Yeah. I have, I know I have two. Two big thoughts, two big thoughts right now. Um, one is it goes beyond, I'm gonna call it lip service of valuing diversity of thought, because you see it time and time again. I have definitely experienced it. They're like, oh, two heads are better than one. We're all better together. But not really, because when you exercise your individuality, it is not well received. And then it, yeah, and it also makes me think of like the process versus the end result. When we think about, back when you were originally talking about what you brought to equity, my mind keeps centering around like this myth of meritocracy that exists in the United States, right? Work hard. Here is your result. And it makes it seem like lots of people work hard every day. Like to be honest, they work their ass off in a variety of ways, right? But when we don't have access to the same opportunities, the same systems to be valued for who we are and what we bring to the table as individuals, like I could go on and on and on, right? When all of those things are nots coming back to how we need to give people different things to help them be successful, right? And I think that's the piece. By looking at individuals and helping everyone grow, it does not take away from your success or take away from your opportunity, but it is the collective that is the challenge. Oh,

Dr. Shelly 33:50

It's, it's the collective and it's the realizing that if I put forth this effort and let, and, in some cultures things are very transactional. do this for you, you're gonna do this for me. You're set, your culture is very transactional. We're seeing that right now with our president. Right. You know, traveling all over the world doing, God knows what I, I'm not even gonna try to get into Right. it's a very transactional piece Mm-hmm. is happening. And this belief that the world operates on these transactions, and that is also along with meritocracy, is a myth. The world does not necessarily operate on pure transactions. When you look at countries that have been able to successfully do some things, and I'm not saying that any, I I, I shuttered the, any country out loud. 'cause literally when I say, yeah, look at China, look at Japan, look at, or people will point out all the negative things. I'm not saying that there is any society on the planet that is ever so perfect and, and Right. its problems. There are all kinds of problems in all kinds of society, America included.

Dr 34:56

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 34:57

my point is that there are some cultures that have figured out that, you know, if we work better together, if we work harder together. Then we can be able to push forward. And I'm not saying everything has to be done together. What I am saying though is that when you look at, going back to what I was saying around Jasmine Crockett Mm-hmm. able to show up authentically when we look at some times, um, what I started to do after my son told me that at, at the university, they were discouraging them from being more like Jasmine Crockett, which to me was, I was just totally taken aback from 'em. And I'm like, why would they be teaching young people to not speak up when they see something wrong? Like, Yeah. does that Right? And I started to really think about the fact that it's not always what she is saying that's bothering people. It's the fact that one, she is saying it and it's the fact that two, they're not sure how to interact with somebody who is putting it out there in that way. Yeah. not and and is unapologetically and unabashedly moving forward in, you know, her critique of what's happening. And when you are not, and I hate to say this, but there's a certain intelligence factor as well when you have not had to work as hard to get to a certain place when you have not had to be as educated to be in the same space. When you come up against someone like that when your path has not been Yeah, has been filled with having to know and do some of the things that she had to know and be able to do, that woman is brilliant. And that yeah. with people intelligence. And it goes back to the neurodiversity piece.

Dr 36:36

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly 36:37

from people that pe that that are not expected to be intelligent is messing with this country in a way like no other. when we look at the fact that black women are the most educated demographic in the United States of America right now and have been for some time. That doesn't fit the mammy narrative that she's supposed to be at home. Suckle having babies suckle on her and you know, which from Yeah. going back to the civil rights era, 'cause I think we forget the people from the civil rights era are still with us. They're not gone,

Dr 37:11

Yeah. It wasn't that long ago.

Dr. Shelly 37:13

It was not that long ago. Right. And so these are the same people who would look at a Jasmine Crockett and think that she was supposed to be somebody's wet nurse. She's supposed to be somebody's maid. She's not supposed to be sitting up in Congress telling people about themselves. That's where we gotta figure out how. Yes, we have people in our society that need, need to get what they need, when they need it, in the way they need it delivered, which is, my internal definition of equity, the one I work with, um, with my clients and people. When we look at what, who needs what in our society, we don't think of people who are from the dominant culture needing to have equity. you look at who needs something in order to get into a battle of wits with a Jasmine Crockett, you got people like Marjorie Te Taylor Greene, who are literally unarmed. Like you don't have the level of intelligence to be able to compete with somebody like that. And yet you're in the same space and you've been told all these things and you don't understand this idea of how to work together. And where I'm going with this is that yes, we need equity for our minoritized populations that have not had an opportunity to achieve levels of success. But something we don't often talk about is there also needs to be an equity movement for our white brothers and sisters who have not been allowed, forced Yeah. to operate, haven't been forced to have to be educated, haven't been forced to have to be the best in a space in order to move forward. They've been, they've been moved in other ways that now when you get inside of a space with someone who has had a different journey. To the level of liberation that she has reached and you're trying to compete with that. You're literally unarmed and Yeah. that what we're not really talking about is we're moving more towards that. More people who have been given what I call the white man hand up, you know, they just keep getting handed up. They, they tend to fail up like nobody I've ever met. Right?

Dr 39:12

Yes.

Dr. Shelly 39:12

keep doing that, that and defining success as where you've been, but not the journey you've taken, not, you know, the, the, the way that you've achieved that, we just define it as well, you're successful and you're powerful because you've gotten there. is where the problem is. And we think that the people that need the equity and the opportunity are those that are minoritized, that have had the education and that's not the case.

Dr 39:36

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 39:36

now need to go back and rethink how they're being educated are those that have been provided these opportunities without necessarily earning them in the ways that others have had to. And this is gonna cause a rift in our society that we're now seeing the beginnings of. And this is what gets me excited. 'cause I see it and go, oh yeah, yeah, y'all ain't ready for this one. No. for a No. of Like, no. the, she's just Well, and we got a OC, Maxine Waters.

Dr 40:06

right? We got a AOC. We got Kamala Harris, right? And. They advocate it's servant leadership. It's what true leadership is, because leaders advocate for those that they are in place to lead, right? So, and they think it's about them as a person. And it is, it is not. And look, and, and when we think about, I, I think you're hitting a very, very important, uh, point when we think about equity in how people are educated. Because, let's be honest, the elite or well off white population has consistently, time and time again, benefited from this privilege of upward mobility without having to show the ability to execute and bringing in lower socioeconomic white. Persons, they still need equity. Like I think one of the most interesting things about like rolling back all this equity is like white women in general specifically are realizing you are part of this journey. Like if you all think like, I am not that old, but when I was born, women could not have their own credit card. What? Right. Like,

Dr. Shelly 41:28

and I kid you not like, when, when we look at that, and, and here's the other thing, and I know this is going to, this is gonna strike some chords, but we have not fought in our society about white people operating at a deficit.

Dr 41:42

yeah.

Dr. Shelly 41:43

We, they, they don't like that. That's something that people like, well, what do you mean? Like, it's always been this idea that this is the standard, but I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna push back on that and I push back on it quite hard and I'm saying, well, what makes them the standard? Other than that they just said, they were like, even with our current president, he's walking around here, you know, Oh my god. because he's saying he's a king. And then just.

Dr 42:06

Oh, I don't have to follow a court ruling. What?

Dr. Shelly 42:10

It's like, let's see how this, let's see how this all pans out. Because you're seeing the systems that have been created here in America, stretched in so many ways at the same time, this is why I say it's a very exciting time for us. Two things, John Hope Bryant, who talks a lot about, finance. He said, like right now, if we as, especially as a minoritized community, this is going to be the time period where we can level the playing field. And AI is our friend, y'all. I'm just saying like, you know, we need to be able to come up with these beautiful ideas, figure out a way to, I don't know, AI power them, whatever they call it these days, right?

Dr 42:53

Yes.

Dr. Shelly 42:53

to move forward because this is going to be the largest they, they saying right now, still the largest shift in wealth. That we're going to see in this country. And what we're seeing right now in our politics is the pushback to that movement. So there's a Yeah. to really, you know, double down on this, but, the Obama pointed out something really, I'm sorry, for President Obama, pointed out something recently in a speech that he gave. I forget where it was, but he pointed out that we've gotta be careful with how we look at, even the gifts that we receive. we talk a lot. There's a talk right now that Trump gave me a check. People say, oh, the Covid Trump gave me a check. 'cause Trump put his name on the actual checks that he handed Right, But come back to when Obama provided money to get us out of the recession, when President Joe Biden did, uh, did give out checks. Guess what they didn't do? didn't put their names on.

Dr 43:53

right.

Dr. Shelly 43:53

didn't put their names on them because it wasn't about them. They are, they, they operated more in this servant leadership mindset that this is about helping the American people. This is about making sure that we're able to push through hard times. This is not about a political stunt to make sure that my name and me and I and et cetera, and we're facing an era in leadership where we're seeing that, um, even those who are in these spaces that have not elevated based on merit have, that have not elevated based on, you know, having earned the positions and having earned their degrees, having earned their education. And, the intelligence is showing. Tho those that are in those spaces are now forced to have to go in, into, I'm trying to say this in the nicest way, but they're having to use, um, less than legal means Oh than, ethical needs yeah. Yeah. Forward because they're literally running out of strategy at this point. Yeah. point, the strategy is we're just gonna take it and, you know, kind of see what happens. Yeah, is that this is not going to end well, not because, um, it's not effective, but because when we talk about the, least educated us, of the things that I faced when I was superintendent in my district, and it was a hard reality pill to swallow to the point where people were getting angry at me for saying it, is that whereas typically people are, are comfortable, if I say, you know, our African American students, our special education students, our English learner students, yeah. really need our support. That da da da, my lowest performing group was not African American. My lowest performing demographic was my low income white students. Yeah. And when I had to say that out loud that we're approaching an over identification of poor white students in our special education programs because our teachers were not equipped with the skills to educate them. And that's been the typical movement is even in education, is if I can't educate a kid, there's not anything wrong with my teaching strategies. It's not that I need to do things differently, it's that there's something wrong with that kid and that kid just can't learn. So they need a special place for them. Right. is that when I started to talk about the fact that in Michigan, um, based on the 2000, I wanna say it. Uh, it might be the 2007. It might be the 2017. Forgive me for not remembering my numbers, but it's a piece of test results. What it pointed out was that Michigan was the worst place in America to learn to read if you were black, it was the second worst place to learn to read if you were white. My point in saying that is that we, without literacy, without being able to read and understand, you are at a disadvantaged off jump. Off jump. And we're Yeah. at third through 11th grade reading scores being the lowest in the nation in some of these places. And now you fast forward to the messaging that they're hearing, they're going, they're looking for a beacon of like, somebody give me some relief, somebody help me. And part of what I see as a fallacy and our equity movement is, yes, we do need equity for our minoritized populations. Yes, Yeah, is alive, homophobia is alive. Yes. But we also are forgetting that there are people who identify as white who aren't even aware. Of how much at a disadvantage they have been placed. And they're aligning themselves based on skin color and based on yeah. systems, but not based on what is actually happening. And that makes them A-A-A-I-I, I feel bad, honestly for 'em, because that makes them a very easy and vulnerable target for people who want to use them. And then, you know, kind of toss them aside. And we're seeing that right now in Kentucky, what's happened with the tornado warnings not having come out because of course we have cut all the people that were supposed Right. Therefore, now when the tornado hits and kills 18 people and y'all going, what happened? Why didn't anybody tell us? Because fired people, somebody that didn't have your best interest Oh. heart. But I mean, I'm just saying when we talk about equity. Yeah, about getting people what they need, when they need it, and the way they need it delivered. Part of what we need to do in this equity movement, and unfortunately it's a lot of people of color and people that are allies with people of color that are doing this work, but we cannot forget about our poor white folks because they're being left hung out to dry. And yes, some of them don't make the best decisions, but we've gotta go back again and look at why that's happening and how that puts all of us in a very vulnerable and dangerous position. yeah, I know I've kind of talked in a big old

Dr 48:35

no, absolutely. I feel like we could just continue forever because you know, there's some historical context to when that shift happened, when the poor whites joined the white movement. So if you don't know. 1865, just Like there was a it up. Um, as a literacy specialist, I'm gonna encourage you to look at what's happening with literacy and how we're kids are reading less than ever before in schools. So I want you to look at that. 'cause I feel like we could go down a whole nother road and I know we're running. I like, look, we could have like two more episodes, Dr. Shelly, you know, but I know we're ready out.

Dr. Shelly 49:08

need to bring you on my show. And

Dr 49:09

Yes. Let's do it.

Dr. Shelly 49:11

then, because really like this is, it's so deep when we talk about the equity movement. And I made a statement the other day in a session and I had to catch myself. but I did double down on it after I said it. 'cause a couple people came up to me afterwards and I said of the things that we didn't do well in the equity movement over the last few years, especially as we have seen this uprising, um, since Mr. George Floyd was murdered, Yeah. we didn't, we didn't bring in our poor white folks into the conversation to talk about their struggles. Instead they felt blamed and shamed for everything Hmm. going on instead of understanding that this is for you too.

Dr 49:49

Yeah,

Dr. Shelly 49:50

by not doing that, we kind of shot ourselves in the foot, not realizing one, even though we had white fragility and all these books to tell us, but I don't think we really realized how fragile. Our white brothers and sisters are when it comes to this, not because they're weak, fragile does not mean weak folks.

Dr 50:08

yeah,

Dr. Shelly 50:08

means that the, that the understandings around this are so complex that we've gotta manage the emotions as you learn

Dr 50:14

yeah,

Dr. Shelly 50:15

there's a lot of emotion that's gonna come as you start to realize that this system that you believed in actually is not had your best interest at heart. yeah, And that's yeah, hard for folks that I have plot for this country. I've done this for this country, this country, right? And I get it. I'm yeah, on that, but I need you to look deeper. I need yeah. Yeah. a little bit deeper and realize, and when we realized that, um, and I realized this big time when I got to Michigan because of the auto industry being there. Remember, I'm California, born and raised. I got there and I started to realize that people had become comfortable with not having to learn because they knew they could go get a job at the, at the plant, the factory. My uncle worked there, my cousin worked there. I got a job coming to me. So we've seen this slow decline. the rigor that's been happening in our schools around literacy and around having to perform. Because they could always, they could go get a hundred thousand dollars job, whether just with a high school diploma, it didn't matter what your grades were, but by the time they hit, you know, whatever age that, you know, Ford or GM or whomever would hire them, they would bring them on within, three to five years. They're making a hundred thousand dollars, got their, picket fence, their wife, their kids, or Right. They're happy. They're living this and they're thinking that's gonna continue forever. Well, here comes AI and electric vehicles and all of these other things and it has totally disrupted this community that had not had to focus very heavily on education and now they need to. And yeah, yeah, And so yeah, think we did it. We did ourselves a bit of a disservice. And that's hard as an equity leader for the last, going on 30 years yeah, yeah. you doing this work. That's hard for us to face because it hasn't been the focal point of our work. But now we're seeing, oh, if we don't focus on this group, look what happens. Like they tend to make decisions that are now, so we gotta, like when we say it is getting everyone what they need, when they need it, and the way they need it delivered. I mean that with every fiber of my being, we've gotta focus on everyone. Yeah. if we don't, we will leave people behind and those people may vote outside of even their own interest and definitely outside of ours. And we do not wanna end up in this space again.

Dr 52:33

No, no. And I, um, think we're seeing some of that, I'm gonna call it regret, or awareness. Maybe not regret, but awareness coming to light,

Dr. Shelly 52:43

I think it's followed by regret, though. I think that yeah, aware, it's like, Ooh, I actually fell for that.

Dr 52:49

yeah.

Dr. Shelly 52:49

Like, oh, I didn't think that was gonna affect me. But, I, I think we're seeing that awakening and I think you're absolutely on point. So how do we, in this, this, this moment in time in our movement, um. Bring those folks into the conversation. Bring them into the movement, bring their, their perspective into what it is we're doing, because at the end, we're all gonna be better for it. So, We are, and, and I really do believe that the way that we do that is through focusing on our families and family leadership. So one of, one of the things that I did during the pandemic and, um, some of, one of my gifts, you take those strengths, one of the, uh, finders and all that, yeah. of the gifts that, um, I've, I've been blessed with, they call me the sage that I, I, when I did my little thing, they said that You're a sage. I didn't know really what that meant. and I was like, what does that mean? That sounds very manipulative, but okay. But what they describe the sage is that the sage is someone who is so forward thinking. I, I, I always, I always get that visionary east. When I, whenever I do those assessments, I try my best. Um, even if I, you know, don't necessarily do it very well at times, I tend to see the big picture. And that's been a gift that I've had. And they called it the Sage gift. And so really when, um, when things started to take a turn, right after George Floyd was murdered, I was doing sessions and I started to see a difference in my folks about a year into the work of doing equity post George Floyd. that I started to see folks that before would be, kind of sympathetic, all of a sudden getting like, almost like racially tired. They're, they're in racial exhaustion because of how much they had talked about it. And they were like, man, this is really deep, this is really big. And it goes to speak to the fragility and the ability to handle as much as, and as deep as this stuff runs. um, when I noticed that I noticed it and also in my clients that I would talk to, like, here are CEOs that have brought me on as their executive coach, and I'm having some serious conversations with them about very personal matters, many of which, uh, forced them to deal with the fact that racism and sexism was not only in the homes that they grew up in, but some of them were realizing that it was also in the children they were raising. was a harsh reality when people are Yeah. they're raw now at home and they can see and hear and experience some of their beliefs and ideas of their kids or other people around them. And it was almost like a, an awakening like, whoa. Wait a minute, I didn't think this was actually happening in my kid. And that led me to move my leadership work more towards the family because I even saw it in my own kids. And so I'm a firm believer that if we're gonna make it through this, the equity work has to shift from workplaces and schools 'cause racism and sexism and these power struggles and these social norms that we have nor, um, normalized and began to idolize. They didn't start at the workplace or Right. They started around the dinner tables at home and how we talked about one another, how we talked about, um, people who were different, how we talked about the relatives and all. And I, and when people really started to Yeah. how do you talk about people at home? And even no matter which home it is, I don't care if it was an Arabic speaking home, a Jewish home, a black home, a white home, a mixed race home, an Asian home, Chinese, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, it did not matter. No matter who I was speaking to, they spoke about how, yeah, we would talk, like there would be people talking about each other at home. They would hear their parents or they talking about relatives. They would hear, you know, um, the N word or the other, you know, slurs, et cetera. I had to even face the fact that even in my own household, like my dad, I love my dad very much, but my dad is an old black man, who was raised by an old black man from the south, and they Right. and some words course. Of course. Yeah. so I'm a firm believer that the equity we seek right now is the work that we need to do to bring about equity is at home. We need to really start focusing on how we're leading our families with intentionality. How are we talking about, uh, people very intentionally around our children? How are we having conversations about one another, about people who are different? How are we engaging and focusing on our own family leadership? 'cause right now, everybody's so focused outside and I know that the results of your family leadership show up at the schoolhouse every day. I could tell you whose family was arguing, whose family has something to eat. Yeah. tell you where you went. Your kids are telling all your business,

Dr 57:27

they are. And we see all the jokes about it too. They're like, right, like all the projects. Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Shelly 57:34

You know, we know we don't, and which means that when my kids go to school, their teachers know, you know, kind of what's Yeah. in our household. And it, it, it just led me to believe that we have to really focus on our family leadership and being very intentional, being very strategic, being very thoughtful about how we're raising our kids and showing them the right ways to talk about people or not showing them the right ways to interact with one another. Because if we rely on what they're seeing right now in the news or in in the media or on the video games or anywhere else, I don't, I don't want my kids emulating any of that. I want them to be able to look at that, and that becomes the topic of our conversation at home when the President of the United States is literally spending time instead of focusing on bringing down the cost of all the things that are literally killing our pocketbook. You are liter, you're, and I'm saying literally something in a public social media argument with a rockstar.

Dr 58:36

Right. Yes.

Dr. Shelly 58:38

I mean, I just, and, and look and, and you're using words like fool an idiot and oh gosh, like I Yeah. us to pause for a moment, America, and really look at, regardless of the politics, regardless if you agree or disagree, is that what we want our children emulating and Yeah. as the way that we're supposed to disagree with one another? And I argue no. If we don't want that, then we are gonna have to take control of that in our own households. So I'm a firm believer that the equity work now needs to start shifting towards the home and everybody really minding your business, minding your family, making sure that the children that you are raising are not going out here making fools out of themselves and talking crazy to people or taking advantage of the education that's being provided to them and making sure that they are learning how to read and think critically and analyze and, you know, make all of these different critical thinking decisions that we need 'em to make. We've got to focus there. And so family leadership, I think is one of the biggest solutions in equity that has not received as much attention as it needs to.

Dr 59:50

I totally agree with that, and I think we're gonna end with that today. Dr. Shelly, I feel like we could just keep on talking for hours, but it has been such a pleasure. And listeners, I'm gonna go ahead and put a link to Dr. Shelly's website, so if you're interested in any of the things she has brought up today, you can get in contact with her. So look for that in the show notes. But Dr. Shelly, thank you so much for coming on today.

Dr. Shelly 1:00:16

Thank you, Dr. Tami, for having me and letting me just speak about something. I'm, I'm just so passionate about, um, what I didn't tell you. I, I knew, I told you I was coming off of my uncle's funeral

Dr 1:00:26

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly 1:00:27

and this morning is just giving me all the revital, like having that Oh yeah. this morning with you. Like, it is it, it is giving me all that I need to move forward this time of year for educators is really hard. It's also hard for us as consultants and supporters, and this morning has just letting me just speak freely about this has been all the therapy I've needed. So Thank you. And you. we talk I do wanna hear more from you. I'm like, I feel like I talked a lot, but I needed to get some of that.

Dr 1:00:58

Yes. No. Yes. Perfect.

Dr. Shelly 1:01:01

We got to do this. We can do this. We all can do this This together. So I wanna thank you for that moment. 'cause it was, it was therapy for me this morning. Um. Thank you for having me.

Dr 1:01:13

Thank you. You know, honestly we talk about serving leadership and I feel like the podcast is part of that because having conversations with folks like you also fills my heart and my spirit around this work. And the intention here is to let people know like, you are not alone, right? Like there are people doing this work every day. They're having these thoughts and feelings and experiences. And I think the more we share and talk about our commonalities and our journey, the better success we're gonna have around equity and, and getting what we need. So thank you again.

Dr. Shelly 1:01:46

Thank you. And, and folks, um, I appreciate everything that you've done and you're doing, and please continue to listen in to Dr. Tami's podcast, think she's got some great things coming for us.

Dr 1:01:56

Thank you.