Voices in Justice: Equity Insights from the Field

In this powerful highlight episode, Dr. Tami revisits standout moments from six transformative conversations on The Equity Hour. These voices challenge, inspire, and ground us in what it means to lead with equity, courage, and clarity.

🔊 Featured Voices:

• Megan Fuciarelli on evolving from cultural missteps to culturally responsive teaching
• Katie O’Malley on humility, white guilt, and career choices shaped by justice
• LaTerrian "LT" Officer-McIntosh on self-advocacy, storytelling, and shifting the narrative through media
• Dewayne McClary on digital equity, system-level change, and the power of access
• Dr. Shelly Jones Holt on epigenetics, courageous leadership, and the myth of comfort = safety
• Leroy Smith on reflection, healing, and leadership as spaciousness

Whether you’re deep into this work or just beginning, this episode offers honest reflections and tangible insights on how we move from awareness to action—and from discomfort to transformation.

✨ If this episode resonates with you, share it, tag us, and keep the conversation going.

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Transcript

Dr: 0:34

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Equity Hour podcast with me, Dr. Tami, and this special Q1 highlight episode. We are revisiting powerful conversations that lit up our podcast. This year you'll hear wisdom from leaders who are re-imagining education, centering justice, and walking the talk of transformational leadership. Whether you're new or a longtime listener, this is your chance to hear the moments that made us pause, reflect, and push forward. We begin today's episode with Segment one with Megan Fuciarelli and her episode of Every Voice Matters. During this episode, Megan reminded us that leadership rooted in humility and shared power is not a weakness. It is a strength. Her courage to center student voice and her journey toward creating safe spaces for all continues to resonate deeply. Let's hear a clip from that episode.

Megan Fuciarelli: 1:46

And then when I went off to college, I experienced significant culture shock. I had no idea what I was walking into. I was placed in the international dorm and being placed in the international dorm, being surrounded by people who did not look like me, spoke languages I didn't understand, ate food I had never even thought of. Like, it was, I was so confused.

Dr: 2:11

Your eyes were probably popping out of your head. Did you choose the international dorm or you just happened to get placed there?

Megan Fuciarelli: 2:17

No, I think it was one of those issues of my surname. Fuciarelli I don't know if they thought I was from a te or, from Italy, or I did not choose it. I was placed there. My parents were afraid for me. Because it was, like, Oh my gosh, what is she gonna do? And then when we found out I had one roommate from Russia, which At that point, all I knew about Russia was the USSR and Mikhail Gorbachev. Like I didn't know anything about. anything. I was so clueless, but one roommate was from Russia and another roommate was from Japan. And I just remember my parents were scared, not because they were hateful people, but they were also very sheltered, didn't understand. And their understanding of diversity was fear. And yeah, being placed in the international dorm was a culture shock moment. I made a lot of missteps early in my journey, uh, went into education. And that's really where it started, was I started as a teacher wanting to make sure that curriculum represented all identities. Um, I was really angry when I found out later in life that Thanksgiving wasn't the way I was taught. Um, like I was angry. I was like, why did they lie to me? And then I felt horrible because as a teacher I taught Thanksgiving incorrectly because that's what I was taught. So, I have to ask this question. Like, how did you, because I had to think back of how I even learned the accurate depiction of Thanksgiving. I wasn't taught it in school, right? Like, I actually perpetuated the issue by teaching it incorrectly for many years. Where did you learn or how did you learn about what actually happened on Thanksgiving? Was it something you were taught in elementary school? Was it something your parents taught you? How did you learn?

Dr: 4:04

neither one of those. Um, really the. I'll think I'll just say the catalyst for me thinking about that way when it comes to curriculum and education and what we are are not taught really goes back to, one of my undergraduate professors. I can't I, I, I keep feeling like it was an extra project that I've decided to do for some reason, but I don't can't remember the details. But anyway, I read dream keepers. So Dr Anna Floriani was my professor. She was amazing. But we talked so much about perspective. Cause she did my ELA methods course, and I think that was really the catalyst, um, like this aha moment for me and my education. Like, I always kind of knew it. But it just made it very real. And then so from that point on, it really affected how I thought about the perspectives or lack thereof that were available to me as an educator. How do I bring those in? and just really kind of set the tone. For everything else

Megan Fuciarelli: 5:13

Okay.

Dr: 5:14

So, thank you, Dr. Floriani and Dr. Gloria Ladson Billings for writing the book.

Megan Fuciarelli: 5:20

Right.

Dr: 5:22

So, I really don't know, but yeah, so I've been looking at, you know, diverse texts and perspectives since I was a, I call myself a young little pup.

Megan Fuciarelli: 5:34

Yeah, my college experience did not do that. Like there was no teaching of how to teach from different perspectives. I had a phenomenal professor like you that Dr. Ivy Goduka. She is the person who opened up my eyes to diversity work and really understanding social justice and what we call it a squared Jedi work. Um, she was from South Africa. I've tried for 30 years to get in touch with her like, I need you. Where are you? No one can find her. I've put please out on social media. I put her in my book, like, please, if you're reading this, I need to find you. Um, but it wasn't about perspectives and teaching and I never got that. And I remember. It was when I went to my own diversity training where it was one of the first trainings I went to and I was talking to some people there and someone was reading lies my teacher told me

Dr: 6:31

Oh, mm hmm.

Megan Fuciarelli: 6:31

I found so much stuff. Like that was the book that made me angry I was like what? Why was I taught incorrectly? What?

Dr: 6:40

You know what? I had to read that book as an undergraduate too. Maybe that.

Megan Fuciarelli: 6:46

Yeah, I I wasn't I had graduated at that point when I read it because I remember I had taught Thanksgiving like I did the traditional all right half the class is going to make the hat and half the class is going to make the feather man like I genuinely did that right and I share that story when I do my work because there are still classrooms across the U. S. Who do that to this day? And I'm like, look, I've been there. Like, I understand your intention not to harm anyone. You don't know any better. But now I'm here to tell you that's not accurate. And you need to do something different. Like I'm

Dr: 7:19

Like the hand where this

Megan Fuciarelli: 7:21

Yeah.

Dr: 7:22

the turkey and then this side is the Native American with the feathers. Yes.

Megan Fuciarelli: 7:30

Like Many of us either did that as a child or maybe even perpetuated it by teaching it as teachers. Like, I was one of those teachers. I remember teaching thematic units about Africa. Like, it's this monolith of people. Like, I did so many horrible things. And now here I am doing the work full time, and it's part of that journey. Like, we have to be human with ourselves and acknowledge that there's going to be growth. Every single day, I learn something new of, Ooh, ooh, the origination of that's probably not something I want to perpetuate, so let's change my vocabulary slightly.

Dr: 8:07

yes. And I think that's such an important point, Megan, is that I feel like. A lot of people think that this is like a boom, like a one and done, or, you know, we just showed up like this into the social justice work. And that's just, I always say, like, it is an ongoing learning trajectory. Like there, to me, there's always something to learn. I find out all the time, like, I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head, but I can't, but there was some word I was like, I just bleh out and they're like, Oh, do you know that's rooted in? I was like, I did not, but I am so glad you told me. Megan's story reminds us that transformation begins with discomfort, but through honest reflection, it leads to deep and lasting impact. Listen to the full episode in season two, episode three. Our next segment comes from our guest from our season two, episode nine. And it is Katie O'Malley Katie's honesty and humility cut through. It's easy to assume you need all the answers to show up for justice, but as she shows us showing up with curiosity and the willingness to be changed by what you learn, that's a form of courage. Let's take a listen to her clip.

Katie OMalley: 10:56

Honestly, if I were to go back all the way to when I was five years old, I, I think it started there, which You know, as someone who identifies and moves through the world as a white cisgender woman who came from a middle class Catholic family in the suburbs to think my equity and social justice journey started at five seems crazy. However one of the things in terms of equity that was very apparent to me growing up was the difference in socio economic status across my family being in the suburbs coming into the city to visit family. There was just difference and there was disparity and really trying to understand and not judge that as a child and having a mother that was. You know, a single mom raised three kiddos. This was even before I came into the picture working three different jobs to try to make ends meet right before she started living this different life after she met my father. And so having had her perspective from, from such a young age was, was really helpful for me, but I was also raised Catholic and I will tell you up until a certain age, there's some really good messages. There that are all really rooted in social justice.

Dr: 12:21

We're to come back to up to a certain age.

Katie OMalley: 12:24

We, we'll come back to it. So, you know, there was that in this idea of we're all, and I, and I say this recognizing the, the, the colorblindness that. We'll come out of the same and we're all the same, right? So we need to treat each other with dig Every person deserves dignity and respect and to live a full life. And it always just seemed so Easy for me. And as I grew older, I didn't understand why it was so difficult for other people. Especially as we started to come into our own social identities, personal identities some of which have more unearned advantage and power than others. And I can remember. And this is probably why I started my career where I did in the political and nonprofit arena. I'm just moving through the world feeling this immense sense of guilt, all the time for everything that I had and never being able to put words to it which I later learned white guilt, white privilege but it wasn't until I hit graduate school at 30 that I actually had a vocabulary to describe why I chose the career path that I chose. I thought I'd been given so much and now I have to It's my duty to return it, and it's my turn to sacrifice in these ways and working, my gosh, working at the Innocence Project and then the AIDS Foundation of Chicago helping folks who were convicted for crimes that they didn't commit, spending 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years in prison, sometimes on death row, and to see it. The stark contrast in the clientele, it was. 99. 9 percent people of color, men of color, right? We're our clients and really starting to ask the questions like, how did this happen? No one covered this in college with me. What, what is this? Obviously there's a systemic happening. Now this is 2004, 2005. So the literature is obviously there, but not something I had been exposed to. So kept doing the work in New York City. And then when I got to the AIDS Foundation of Chicago, a brand new set of lessons and learnings and understanding about the LGBT community and the struggles for equity that, that existed in and continue to persist there as well. Especially when we look at. The HIV AIDS epidemic. So I, I guess I could keep going. But I, I think to the, the question about my equity journey. So much of it is rooted in the choices I've made in my career. I'm really being willing to expose myself to folks that have had different lived experiences than me and not trying to come in as. Some I'm gonna mess this up the, the white person on the horse trying to solve

Dr: 15:37

savior.

Katie OMalley: 15:38

savior. Yeah, I'm just coming in with cultural humility like I didn't, I don't know and it wasn't my place to know I was there to be of service and to, to learn

Dr: 15:51

Katie reminded us that equity work is deeply personal and that brings us to LaTerrian, Officer-McIntosh or LT, whose journey from USC Film School to South Dakota is a testament to what happens when we refuse to accept the status quo. From calling the district herself as a teenager to enrolling in an IB film class to avoid chemistry, and then landing a job on Spider-Man homecoming. LT's story is one of self-efficacy, creative resistance, and using media to reframe the narrative.

LT: 16:26

With my grandparents, it wasn't private school. It was just school and my mom, it was just school. And so. Around sixth grade, and that's when I, um, started going to school over at my grandparents' house is when I realized that there was a major difference and the difference. And, and you know, when you're, when you're your child, you're not, you don't understand all of these big historical things all different factors. I said, this is the black school and over here where all the kids look like me. We're not actually learning very, very much. And the, the lunch is actually not very good. Teachers are overwhelmed and we don't have books. And over here I have the time of my life in the sense of like all the resources are there, but then I also felt like I didn't belong right. Oh I was supposed to be in this space. Um, I. And so I didn't know, know how to make very much meaning out of that at the time in that, again, like I didn't understand all the context. I just knew as a child, I said, well then I need to be over here at the white school, right? Because that's school that will give me the opportunities. I knew I wanted to go to college. Um, I didn't know what for, but I, you know, I said, it seems like the only way I'm going to get to where I wanna be in life is this proximity to these white kids, right? I spent a lot of time, I remember when I moved back to my mom's house and I went to, a school in the neighborhood, my that, and it was my freshman year of high school. I was like, absolutely not. You know, I need to find another school. I called the district and I Googled something online and I said, I'm, I have a right to a good education. That's what I told him. I didn't know what that meant or. I love this. You're like, even sure what I'm saying, but I know. You know, we all have a right to education. And I said, and I'm not getting the one that I'm supposed to get over here. Um, and so I kept calling. I kept calling and I hounded them and they said, okay, we'll put you in this busing program. And, uh, or not a busing program, they said they, they had some program where, you know, if your school that you were assigned to was failing or below a certain level, you could go to another school

Tami: 18:28

Like a school of choice or something like that.

LT: 18:30

yeah, like you can pick, they have like a few options and you could. One. Um, but you had to get yourself there. So I started, I was living in, we were in Atlanta at the time and they would, I'd have to take the MARTA from where we were and it took me about two and a half hours to get to school every day. And then at some point, you know, we moved again and I ended up at this school and they had this program called the, the IB program. I had no idea what it meant. But you know, it, it registered to me that this was an advanced program. And so I, I showed up in the IB office and I said, I'm supposed to be in this program, so you need to enroll me. But I didn't have any test scores. They didn't, my, it hadn't transferred over yet. And they're like, oh, I don't know if you're supposed, and I'm like, no, I'm supposed to be in this program. You need to put me in IB. They had me take this test and they said, okay, you can be an iv. Um, and through that, I always thought I was smart, but I knew I was not taking anybody's AP or IB chemistry. Okay. I did know I did know that.

Tami: 19:33

Me either girl. Me you know, No biology, no Chemistry.

LT: 19:38

They did put me in IB bio. I had to say one of'em. That was a journey we got through it, but, um, I ended up, and, and it ties back into Black Panther and those other things. I was avoiding IB chemistry when I was picking my class schedule and there was this option for IB film. And so I said, okay, you know, put me, put me in IB film. And, um, I remember the first day in class, I honestly thought we were gonna be watching movies. Okay. Just watching movies. And I was like, it's gonna be an easy ai. Remember I walked in, I dropped my bag on the floor, I sat back and the IB film teacher, who was also the IB English teacher, Mr. Aronson, was like, what are you doing? And I'm like, waiting for the movie to start, you know, I'm like a teenager. for the movie part.

Tami: 20:19

Duh.

LT: 20:19

he's like, your notebook in your pen out now. And I was like, oh. Okay. And so the class was really like a deep dive into like. Cinema's literature, you know, as an art form. Um, understanding the themes and the nuances and just breaking down this film language and then my whole world just changed. That is what ended up leading me to pursuing a career in film. But that whole journey, um, which was all necessary to bring me to that moment of even advocating for myself to be put in, you know, put into the, the program, is kind of what set that pathway. Um, towards film and then brought me back to education because, once I went started at USCI was really thinking about, you know, media and the way it impacts how at, at the time I was really focused on how it impacts how people view, view black people. Just having that experience of being the only, I remember when I was with my grandparents. My sister and I were the only two black kids in the school up until that moment. I had never experienced racism. Right. And it took me a little bit to get it. I remember I had a classmate ask me, is your dad in jail? And I was confused. I was like, oh no. Is is your dad in jail? Because I didn't, I was like, no, girl, you okay?

Tami: 21:36

like do, do, do. A lot of people in this school have dad's in jail

LT: 21:39

I was like, are y'all good over here? And I went home to my grandpa and I was like, grandpa. Why did she ask if my daddy was in jail and he was like, oh, you know, let's have that talk. And then I started noticing just the ways I was treated differently. And then as I, later on when I started studying film, I started recognizing the way media was, putting out these very specific narratives about the community. Like I remember watching the help with my grandmother, and I remember I was feeling uncomfortable, right? In the sense of like. That just didn't reflect the reality that I was living when I was with my grandparents, right? Like my grandfather, worked for the government. A really good job for a long time. My grandmother was the head nurse, in the, uh, the, the neonatal unit, like all of these things, in a lot of ways, very cookie cutter. There was a dog and a big yard, and, someone read to me every night and I wasn't allowed to go outside and play until, um, you know, I, I, you know, read x amount of pages and wrote about it. And that's how a lot of my, my family operated. When you looked on tv, you couldn't find that right. When I watched, you would think that we were just relegated to this very specific experience and not saying that any other experience that didn't match that was not valid. It absolutely was, but it just didn't make sense to me that those were the only experiences. You know,

Tami: 22:59

The diversity of the experience was missing from the story. And the narrative and the, what people could see or have like a window into. Right. Yeah.

LT: 23:12

I felt like that just had such an impact on just how people reacted to me and, and, and, and honestly how I reacted to myself Sometimes I just felt like an alien. You know, I struggled with some just, um, internalized hatred of just not ever feeling like enough, you know, navigating, navigating these spaces. And so when I got to USC, I, I was just really, really looking at media and, and wanting to create, you know, in my storytelling and, and my own, journey as a, as a filmmaker and a creative, wanting to tell stories that broadened the perspective and the, you know, and, and the view of what it meant to exist in, in this wonderful community that I, that I come from. Um, and so I don't know if I should pause there,'cause then that'll take me next until.

Tami: 23:58

Let's pause for a second I, I have of course. A couple questions because a few things you said. Number one, I am just so impressed with the amount of self-advocacy you were able to exercise as a young person that put you on the path to where you are today. Um, so kudos to you right, for, for advocating for yourself in that way. Is that something that you felt was just like an inherently part of your person? Do you think that was modeled from other adults around you? Or where did that like tenacity to say, no, I'm supposed to be here and you need to open a spot for me?

LT: 24:45

Um, I felt like, I think some of. A, a significant portion of that came from, um, seeing how difficult, the difficult experiences my mom go through sometimes of just, you know, being a single mother, um, raising, raising myself and, and my sister, and I knew that I, I wanted. Life to look different. I, I knew that there would, be these roadblocks and I kind of set, you know, learned or picked up or, or kind of rationalized that I, if I, if I knew that I wanted life to, I. Ultimately be easier at some point that I, I have to go around the roadblocks and that whatever that roadblock was, whether I interpreted as people or, you know, you know, this, this district that I was in, I, I just had to go around them or through them or whatever. Um, and then also with my grandparents, they just from a young age. You know, success wasn't a maybe like in their, in the way they spoke to me, it wasn't, I remember, when it, okay, so, uh, my granddad is a musician. He plays saxophone and clarinet and, all these things. And so when, when fifth grade came, he goes, what instrument are you gonna play? Not if you're going to play an instrument. And so it never even occurred to me as like. If there was an option to not try to acquire this new skill, it was, um, you know, what, what skill are you going to acquire? Um, and so I think that's, you know, kind of really set it. And then they would ask me things like, what college are you going to go to? Not, and it could have been community college, but you were gonna do something, you know? And then I think. You know, school there, I, I went to a lot of schools that I really felt were failing me and I've always had a very strong sense of like, justice. And once I figured out that this wasn't fair, I said, well, because it's not fair. I. That, you know, told me that I'm going to have to work beyond that and move beyond that. And you know, the systems and when you're a kid, you're saying these people are not fair. But know, it's broader than that. It's much larger than that. But at the time I'm like, y'all are not fair. Therefore I don't even, I'm not even taking what you're telling me. not realizing it because you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm gonna go figure it out. So I think it's a combination of, of things. I'm also the oldest daughter. I feel like that's gotta have something

Tami: 27:22

Oh, it definitely, I'm an oldest daughter, so 100%.

LT: 27:26

I, and I was actually thinking about the other day, when did that set in? And I, I would have to say around sixth grade when I started realizing that schools could be different. There was no reason because I got to this other school that was more resource and things like that. Um, and, and I didn't choose to go there. I was, you know, moved to my grandparents' house. The therefore, I said if I didn't do anything to not be here, then there's no reason that I shouldn't be here in these spaces. And that just kind of stuck with me. I, I, the, the world should be available to me. And, and that is, and that was a driving force to, to get me through school.

Tami: 28:03

Yeah. Oh, that's so amazing. I've heard a couple themes that I think in the things you're sharing that are really important. Um, one of course is. Like representation matters and is important. And I've been, you know, we've seen a lot more of that probably in the last decade of trying to make sure that that happens and that diversity of story that's been historically missing and also the, the power of how we use. Words and speak truth or possibility into young people. And whether that is your child, your grandchild, you know, you're a teacher, whomever you are like. Your words are powerful to set the tone for what they may see as possible. I, I mean, I have heard so many stories of people talking about my teacher told me I was a failure, or I was never gonna make anything in my life, or whatever, things like that, right? And that is detrimental to the psyche of a young person. Um, so. I, I don't know where I was gonna go with that, but I just think those two pieces are huge. Like they work really well in tandem. So not only are we hearing and saying that these things are possible diverse. Persons get to see it and the potential of it. You know, whether that's through, fictionalized story or truth in who's sitting and doing what and having a voice in what's happening in the world. I don't know. What do you think about that? Take on what you've said.

LT: 29:47

There, you know, you hear all the time like teachers saying, um, you know, you're not gonna make it. Or these, these comments that really sit with a young person and it kind of takes me back. I was towards the end of my time at USC and I had three jobs. I was taking 18 credits, like Woo girl. stressed out trying to pay for life in California and film school. And I remember I had this like, one of the final projects and I, I made a mistake, in coverage. And so I like broke this rule to where when you flip the camera, if you don't do it the right way, it, it changes where the character is on screen and it's a continuity error. And I just, I felt I was just mortified. I was just so down on my myself and I was already like really like, you know, sitting with these thoughts of like, you're never gonna be good enough. You're not gonna make it. And one of my professors told me that I wasn't gonna make it, that I should really maybe start considering something else. And, you know, it really hurt my feeling. I was embarrassed in front of my peers and Yeah. but. Um, again, I was like, you know what, that's a, that's a roadblock and what do we do with roadblocks, and so I ended up getting, I ended up emailing that semester, probably 200 cinematographers, and I just asked them all to please meet me for coffee. I just wanted to talk and learn about what I needed to do to, get in the industry and make an industry. And I met a man named Salvatore Totino, who I absolutely adore. For coffee. And I said, what advice do you have for, for a young person who really wants to get in a camera? So we talked and a couple weeks later he called and he was like, you know, I really like you. I really, I really think that, you know, you can, you can do this. Do you wanna come work on Spider-Man Homecoming? Right. And so I say this because it's such like a, a juxtaposition, you know, I one, um, figure who's like, just. Just throwing a towel and this other one who is like, you know, you're, you're still green, you're still learning. Come on, I'll, I'll, I'll teach you, you know, I'll help you. And I got that job on Spider-Man. I emailed that professor and I said, Hey, remember when you told me that I should just go ahead and hang it up in two weeks? I start my first job on Spider-Man homecoming.

Dr: 32:09

From media to movement building lts story shows how creative expression and self-advocacy can challenge broken systems. But what happens when we zoom out even further when equity work scales from the individual to entire districts? That's where Dwayne McClary comes in. In this next segment, Dwayne shares how growing up in South Carolina's corridor of shame shaped his drive to lead system level change his reflections on access. Digital equity and practical implementation remind us. Equity isn't just a mindset, it's a strategy.

Dewayne McClary: 32:47

I started really focusing on equity, uh, really doing my, it's interesting we talk about this now. So I, I've always been involved in social justice. My family kind of forced me there. I had a aunt, a great, great, great aunt. Who was like the NAACP for our area. And she was that person fast forward to my high school years. I became very involved in the local chapter of the youth and college division of NAACP college years, uh, became the, education committee chair for the state of South Carolina youth and college division of NAACP. And later became the state. President for the Youth and College Division. So, social justice has always been through and through my blood. Growing up, um, you know, I had many civil rights leaders in my community that I can name, that I can reach out to or live down the street from me, join a march anytime, any day across the state of South Carolina. And so that has been something that I've taken with me even when I went into education. Starting out in my early years in my hometown, where I saw, you know, students who look like me, who came from communities, um, that were, you know, very impoverished are, and it was, it was sad to see, but they didn't have the access that other. You know, students across the state had, we were in what they call the corridor of shame. Um, and, if you don't know what that is, people looked that up in the state of South Carolina. So it's pretty much the most impoverished area across the state. and maybe on the East Coast. Um, and so we were struggling. With, you know, kids that had never left the city limits. we started a boys and girls club, and we took them to Atlanta, Georgia. We took them to see a baseball game, we took them to the Coca Cola Museum, we took them to the African American Museum. The funny thing is to see these young men and women at the boys and girls, club that we created. Um, hanging on the side of the windows of the bus sale because they were leaving the Williamsburg County. They had never left the county.

Dr: 35:02

Wow.

Dewayne McClary: 35:03

Not even then to even talk about the state. Like, it was just sad to see, but it was also exciting because we were given that experience. So for me, it's always been about giving opportunity and access to individuals that were in my arm's and that kind of led me to wanting to broaden, you know, my reach. Later came to D. C. Public Schools, where my eyes were open even wider. To the very vast inequities there was, especially when it came down to, digital equity. And when I talk about digital equity, it's like a five prong stool. It's like affordable and reliable internet access. And we're just not talking about this. I'm talking real broadband, internet access in your home, access to an appropriate device. And when I say appropriate, because it depends on the needs, it could be a laptop, it could be a tablet, um, whatever that need is for that individual. And then the third stool is digitized curriculum. A lot of people, you know, we put these devices in the hands of kids, but what are they going to do on it? Have you digitized the curriculum? Have you aligned your curriculum to even meet the needs and most districts at that time? I think we're past that. They were buying the device and then fixing the curriculum to align with device when it should be the opposite way. You should be have your curriculum content folks at the table. Okay. Cool. Finding the device that aligns with your needs. Like, do you have, you have probes? Do they need to plug into USB or USB C? Do you have those peripherals? Like, it's so many moving parts that you gotta have someone that's really thinking about it from that standpoint. we have a different movement, I think, now. We have a movement of banning cell phones. Get rid of them. Let me tell you, cell phones ain't going nowhere.

Dr: 36:53

Oh.

Dewayne McClary: 36:54

Like, we, I remember when I, when I was an instructional technology coordinator, we were trying to get teachers to understand that devices are here and devices are here to stay. And if anything, it's going to get worse. How do we incorporate those tools? How do we cooperate those devices into the classroom? Because at one time before ESSA dollars came and COVID hit, we didn't have enough devices to get students. There was no money, there was no funding for it. So, you know, we had to utilize the student device. It could be the, you know, some of them had iPads, some of them had cell phones. We're using those for the Kahoots then, of the world. Um, but now it's like, we're like, we don't want them, put them away. I think that's a slippery slope, and I know, that's a contentious conversation, but I want people to understand where did this movement come from. Research it. Understand where did this cell phone movement come from? Because sometimes we hitch our, our, our, our bandwagon to something that we don't know where it came from. Just, just look and see where that, that movement started. Everybody else is doing it. So I think I better do it? too. It's a good slogan, you know, student engagement, but you're giving schools, it's like you making schools, um, have a, another thing

Dr: 38:12

Okay, so I think that's an interesting thing to look at, because you're right. It's really easy to hitch our bandwagon to something Dwayne reminds us that equity work is practical. It's about designing systems that serve students, not just about theories that sound good on paper. And when we start pulling those systems apart, we often uncover deeper questions about power, identity, and truth. That's exactly where Dr. Shelly Jones hold takes us next in a conversation that pulls no punches. Dr. Shelly challenges us to move beyond comfort and toward collective accountability. From her early experiences navigating medical bias to her unapologetic stance on leadership, she calls us to lead with both courage and clarity.

Dr. Shelly: 38:59

recognizing that in that diversity of solution, what works for some people does not work for other people. And sometimes those differences fall along racial lines. And usually when it falls along racial lines or um, or nationality lines, don't get an unbiased approach here in America. Mm-hmm. the pro is one of the biggest problems, is that we need an unbiased approach to things like education, like medic medicine and other, public service and public health fields, because we are different. Yes, we all may bleed red, but the, the contents and the makeup and the genetic, um, uh, impact. Or the genetic genetics that I have are different from anyone else. that is not just our racial lines. That's on an individual level. When you start looking at symp different symptomatic diseases and different ways that diseases have hit people, when you start talking about things like epigenetics with ma, which many people are not as familiar with, and how the trauma that that hits people can impact your DNA and therefore travel from mother to child. And when we think about the impact of epigenetics, if it only takes one generation to shift your DN DNA as it did with survivors of the Holocaust, imagine what's happened with those who have survived the American enslavement. That was, you know, foundational to this country. One generation with our Jewish brethren, we saw genetic impacts that lessen their ability to handle stress and trauma. What do you think happens after 400 years and 25 or 30 generations? Right. the, the like, the idea that yes, we are all human beings and we have, we have the right to have opportunities is a very, uh, basic one. It's one that most people say, yeah, if you work hard, you, you should have the opportunities, but the reality of what that actually means and looks like in practice and what that means for having to look at your practice differently as a teacher. where I decided to go into, I had to teach my kids differently. I had kids that came in that spoke different languages. Some kids that came in that had, um, learning differences, some kids that had familial trauma and weren't eating in the morning or didn't have, you know, clean clothes. And, you know, these basic necessities and those, every one of those types of children are going to learn differently. It makes sense that they would also need differences in other things going all the way to the medical field and the workplace. And if we are abandoning or misunderstanding or misinterpreting this idea of equity being, getting people what they need, we become part of the problem. And so Yeah. just glad that we're continuing this conversation even amidst some of the pushback that it's getting. But let's be honest, uh, progress. Progress has always gotten pushback. Let's

Dr: 42:03

I was like, this is not new. I keep saying this to people, I was like, look, this is not new. It may be a little more in our face for those of us that did not grow up in the civil rights era. Right. Um, but it was all in everybody's faces for quite some time. Right. This pushback is not new. It maybe went under, I don't even wanna say under the radar,'cause I don't even really think it was,

Dr. Shelly: 42:26

Yeah. believe that it was there. I think we really, and I, and I can confess to this too, like I want in my heart to believe that we are farther ahead than the civil rights era. And I think that right now it's reminded us honey ain't much changed. And we were, I think we had a belief that we, it had, Hmm. it had Yeah. it.

Dr: 42:49

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly: 42:50

I think that we need to distinguish. I love the fact that you used the word uncomfortable because you're uncomfortable with it. It does not mean you are unsafe and therefore need to be on the defensive

Dr: 43:00

Yes.

Dr. Shelly: 43:00

because you get uncomfortable you may not know the answer to the question, you may not, you know, like what that question is implying because it's something that you may not want to face. It's something that is contradictory to who you believe you are. of this can be true and you can still be uncomfortable and be safe in the space. And that there's a difference though. And we have misconstrued lack of safety for lack of comfort, and that has caused some huge issues in our society Yeah. when we are unsafe, we feel like we need profe protection. Somebody needs to come and save us if we're unsafe. If you're uncomfortable, that means you need to put your big girl panties on or your big boy pan pants on Yeah. with whatever is in front of you, even if you may be unsure how or what the result is going to be. The those two are very different situations and saving people from uncomfortable situations is what has gotten us this far in this mess that we're in. We're saving people from having to answer the hard questions. Let's answer something like, what if epigenetic trauma has had an impact on black bodies and Jewish bodies? How is that same trauma of beating, raping, lynching people for generations, what has that done to your DNA? What has that done to your ability to feel empathy? What has that done to your ability to see the world through different perspectives? could that be an issue that is not something for the minoritized to deal with? That is something for the larger population, the dominant group to deal with. If it's changed my ancestry, what's to say that it hasn't changed yours? Yeah. are uncomfortable topics and conversations for folks. Whereas when I say have the epigenetic conversation about what's happened to people who have been harmed, we can have that conversation. Even though it's a little uncomfortable, folks can Yeah. in it. When we start talking about the people who have done the harm and whether or not,'cause the question I ask is, if you have this kind of history, if you have this kind of, of DNA in your body. Are you fit to lead and are you fit to lead people who you, you or your ancestry have traditionally seen as less than human? Mm-hmm. should you be doing before you step into a position of leadership, especially of diverse communities? See, these are conversations again, they make the power structure very uncomfortable, but they're not unsafe. You Yeah. not like the answer. You got to give.

Dr: 45:39

Yes, yes and no. A hundred percent and. I think a way for people that are new to the work or are trying to think about how this applies to them in uncomfortableness is where growth happens. If you aren't uncomfortable, you're not growing. So if you start a new workout regimen, Here we go. right. to, I admit. I need to. I'm, I'm in that space. Girl, you are speaking my language. I started Pilates in February and I am in love. Okay. So yes. So I'll just use myself, right? Like I'm a hundred days into my Pilates journey. There are some things that I can do pretty well, but then they make some small tweak or I learn some small new thing and it's uncomfortable. My muscles are uncomfortable, but my, the change happens when I push through the uncomfort. To get to the next level, and I have to continue when the next uncomfortable moment or feeling comes continue to push forward. And I think that is how you can think about this work when a moment of uncomfortableness comes up, hold on, right? Like and push through and you're gonna learn something, you're gonna move to the next, you know, level, for lack of a better word. That's where this work is a journey, right? I've been doing this for 25 years and I won't say the conversations make me uncomfortable anymore, but I am willing to, when I learn something or something is brought up to me that I didn't know, I didn't know, Yes. you can't know everything, right?

Dr. Shelly: 47:25

Dr. Tami, you are speaking truth to life in every way. I mean, um, I didn't really talk too much about this, but my, my main job now is as an executive leadership coach, and Yeah. the things I say at Leadership Legacy Consulting, we do the journey deliberation, which is what we say is that this journey that you are on to liberation, which is a higher level, a deeper level of freedom, Yeah. is one thing that's just taking the shackles off of your body. And what's physically I impacting you? Oftentimes, or the legal, uh, pieces, the politics, but liberation is freedom of the mind. Hmm. is finally free, you're in a whole nother level. And one of the things that we say in our work is that the courageous leadership that you seek and courageous leadership, which is our signature program, is, um, courageous means to push through fear. Leadership being to serve. You have to push through fear if you are going to be of service to others, and the courageous leadership you seek is on the other side of the discomfort you covet and this and, and so, or the comfort you covet.

Dr: 48:33

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly: 48:34

have to push forward through that discomfort. I'm gonna say that one more time the courageous leadership you seek is on the other side of the comfort you covet.. When we stop coveting, comfort and embrace at the experience of discomfort.'cause oftentimes, Glenn Singleton speaks about this in his agreements for courageous conversations about race, that if we can truly get to a place where we experience discomfort, I mean, and let's be honest, we don't like to be uncomfortable.

Dr: 49:03

No.

Dr. Shelly: 49:04

we have fans, we have, you know, water bottles, we have cushy seats, we do all kinds of things so that we are not uncomfortable in any way, shape, or form. Right? But it's through the discomfort that the growth happens. It's through the discomfort that you realize what you're really capable of.

Dr: 49:22

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shelly: 49:23

the discomfort that you realize what you fear was gonna break, you actually helped make you like, these are the things that you realize. And if you are always sitting here trying to push back the discomfort. And that's one of the challenges, and I'm just gonna say it out loud, it's one of the challenges of Eurocentric culture is that Eurocentric cultures have traditionally. uh, uh, celebrated just success, but not necessarily the journey or the

Dr: 49:49

Mm.

Dr. Shelly: 49:49

that success. They celebrate what it is that, the image that you're supposed to project, but not necessarily all the struggles that created that image. Whereas many collectivist cultures, whereas African American culture is more of a collectivist culture, we actually celebrate the struggle. We wanna put the issue in the middle of the room and have everybody talk about it. Yeah. wanna see like all the ugly sides.'cause that's where we know we can see the growth. Like, oh, you went through that, that, that, and you still, okay, that's inspirational. Whereas oftentimes in Eurocentric culture, it's, well, don't tell'em the struggle, the struggle. Don't tell'em how hard it was just so that you did it right and you overcame. That's where that image of success, uh, versus the journey to success. At which do you value more? We tend to value the journey. other people tend to value the image or the power that comes with it. And so this discomfort piece that we're hitting on is a big issue in the equity world because when everybody is getting what they need, when you have to do something different for somebody else, if your mindset isn't in a place where you're saying, I'm willing to do, like if Dr. Tami needs something and I gotta do something different so Dr. Tami can be successful, then I'm, I'm actually happy to do that. But if I feel like, well, I have to do something so I'm losing out so that Dr. Tami can win, then the mindset because, well, that's not Dr. Tami's issue. She gotta deal with that versus it is our issue to be collectively successful, even at something like a podcast, we have to make sure we are meeting each other's needs. If that doesn't happen, then it doesn't become an enjoyable and productive experience. The same thing applies, I would argue, in every situation where you have more than one person trying to accomplish a task,

Dr: 51:38

Yeah.

Dr. Shelly: 51:38

have to be able to meet one another's needs, even if that means it's gonna take a little bit of extra effort on your part to make sure the next person has what they need. If you see that as a deficit and a problem versus part of the process and the journey to success, therein lies the difference.

Dr: 51:57

Dr. Shelly reminds us that discomfort is not danger, and we do no one any favors by avoiding the hard questions. Her episode, season two, episode 13, A Must listen. Our final guest today is someone who reminds us that equity begins in the stories we carry. In the curriculum, we shape Leroy Smith's personal journey from Baltimore's wire neighborhoods to curriculum design and coaching is powerful. He teaches us that healing, openness and curiosity are not just personal qualities, they're leadership essentials.

Leroy Smith: 52:35

Yeah. I mean, I've taught math for years and. It. I mean, one of the greatest lessons that you can teach students is about negative and positive integers. Is when you're already in debt, you need even more to get into the positive. So there's a lot more effort. And we talk about magnitude on the number line

Dr: 52:53

Yeah.

Leroy Smith: 52:54

like we talk to kids about, like, when you hear magnitude, most people think of earthquakes.

Dr: 52:58

Yeah.

Leroy Smith: 52:59

The larger the magnitude, the more the impact is the same thing. When you're in a ne, when you're in a negative side of things, further you are away from. Equal opportunity or just any great opportunity, the more that you need, the higher the magnitude you need to get propelled forward. Um, because you're so much further behind, not because of anything that you did, it's just because of circumstances and the systems that are in place.

Dr: 53:26

Yeah, absolutely. I love that way of thinking about it too, because that. For people in how sometimes people get emotional talking around some of these processes or systems or what are really fact, right?

Leroy Smith: 53:42

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 53:42

It's a way to think about it outside in a way that's a little bit more tangible, I think is what I'm trying to say.

Leroy Smith: 53:48

Yeah.

Dr: 53:49

you know, like it doesn't feel like a personal attack. It just is like, Hey, just really think about this. If this happens.

Leroy Smith: 53:56

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 53:58

Um, this is the result of that. And then how do we mediate that?

Leroy Smith: 54:02

Mm-hmm. That's also part of my healing journey. actually looking at some of my, um, I look at my reflection journals here or there just to see like I. Where I was not that long ago where I am. And one of the things I noticed is that although I experienced quite a bit of trauma just because of the circumstances of where I grew up, and the systems that influenced that or caused that or had some hand in that, I actually had quite a bit of, like, I was both a caretaker at too young of an age to not enjoy the, the, the, the beauty of childhood. the same time, I was also. of the family structure, there was a lot of looseness, loose structure for me to create my own, um, way. So I think, as I've gotten older, I realized that it's just kind of been a part of my nurture, kind of inadvertently by my family and also part of my nature to just kind of find my own way. And I've done that, I've learned that I have to create space for other people as they're finding their own way. So I think. That's why, you know, typically when I speak to people, um, I, I say I can sit down with even who does, who doesn't like me or hate me because I'm open to hear where their heart is and where their, and where it was. Because I think it's, I think sometimes the greatest, thing that diminishes our humanity is just not understanding. Like I said, that up and downs the natural parts of life. I don't know what down someone went through that created whatever they feel or whatever they believe. Um, I don't know what up they experienced that may have created that either. I just know how I show up in the world and I try my best to understand other people, so think having that openness allows us to actually be in community and, and grow. like I'm, I'm trying to think of like all the gardeners out there as gardening season. you don't like, make enough space in your soil for all the things you're growing, things will start growing up on top of each other and competing for space and they'll be in conflict. So there, I think even Garters know kind of, um. Almost like through, how do you say, muscle memory, that you can't crowd everything. There has to be a level of openness just for things to grow. So I think that's the space I'm in now, and I'm trying to continue that path.

Dr: 56:20

Yeah. Yeah. The plan. Plants need a space to breathe

Leroy Smith: 56:23

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 56:24

airflow, right, to be their most productive.

Leroy Smith: 56:26

Yep.

Dr: 56:27

And I think that's a great analogy, right? Because we as humans also, right, need space and air to breathe and room

Leroy Smith: 56:33

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 56:34

to to grow. I love that. Leroy's perspective speaks to the heart of what we believe here at The Equity Hour that every person has a story worth honoring, and every system needs to make space for that story. You'll find his full episode in season two, episode 12. I hope this highlight episode left you energized and inspired from Megan's vulnerability to Katie's humility. To LT's Fire, Dwayne's Systems Lens, and Dr. Shelley's Truth Telling and Leroy's Reflection. We've seen equity in motion, real stories, real strategies, and a shared reminder that our work is just the beginning. If you wanna hear more, be sure to check out the full interviews. You'll find direct links in the show notes. Or just search the equity hour on your favorite podcast provider. And if this episode resonated with you, share it with your community. Leave us a review or tag us on social to join in the conversation. Until next time, I'm Dr. Tami. Thank you for being in community with me. And remember, use your voice today.