The Equity Hour
Welcome to The Equity Hour, a Dragonfly Rising podcast where we delve into powerful conversations on social justice, equity, education, and personal growth. Join your host, Dr. Tami Dean—an experienced leader, coach, speaker and facilitator with over 25 years of expertise—as she offers practical tips, resources, and actionable strategies to help you integrate equity into learning and working environments. Whether it’s a solo episode filled with insights or an engaging discussion with passionate educators, thought leaders, and change-makers, each episode is designed to inspire and empower you to create more inclusive and equitablespaces. Tune in each week to explore the challenges and successes of fostering diversity, inclusion, and cultural competence in schools and beyond.
The Equity Hour
Organizational Culture, Bias, and Belonging: The Equity Imperative
In this episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean welcomes Dr. Courtney Teague—leadership strategist, executive coach, and founder of CLT and Associates—for a dynamic conversation on transforming organizational culture through equity, inclusion, and shared humanity. With over 17 years of experience across corporate, education, and government sectors, Dr. Courtney unpacks what it really means to build inclusive systems where people don’t just survive—they thrive.
From uncovering mislabeling in special education to challenging performative equity statements in corporate culture, this episode explores how leaders in all industries can move from words to impact. You’ll learn the role of invisible bias, how data-informed decisions drive cultural change, and why “belonging” must be budgeted—not just branded.
Key Topics Covered:
- Why equity work is deeply personal and not just professional
- The difference between inclusion and conformity in workplace culture
- Why equity should be a strategic imperative—not a charity initiative
- Practical ways to create data-informed, trust-based environments
Perfect For:
- Education leaders & school district administrators
- HR executives & DEI practitioners
- Nonprofit directors & corporate change-makers
- Organizational development and culture strategists
Connect with Dr. Courtney Teague: https://cltandassociates.com/
👉 Let’s Keep the Conversation Going:
If you're ready to lead culture with intention—whether in your classroom or your boardroom—subscribe and share this episode. For more insights and upcoming events, visit https://dragonflyrising.org and follow The Equity Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Equity Hour with me or host Dr. Tami. I am so excited to have my newest guest with us here today. We have Dr. Courtney Teague in the house. Hey Courtney.
Dr. Courtney:Hey, happy day. Happy day. It's a wonderful day to be alive.
Dr. Tami:Yes, yes. So lemme tell you all a little bit about Dr. Courtney. She is a leadership strategist, executive coach, and the founder of CLT and Associates, a firm dedicated to unlocking human potential and building organizations where people thrive, not just survive. Uh, amen to that.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:with over 17 years of experience across corporate education and government sectors, Courtney helps leaders move beyond titles and into transformational impact. She partners with executives, entrepreneurs, and change makers to develop leadership, drive cultural excellence, and activate strategic growth, all while leading with shared humanity at the core through CLT and associates. Courtney isn't just shaping leaders, she's shaping what's possible.
Dr. Courtney:Hmm.
Dr. Tami:Welcome to the show.
Dr. Courtney:Oh my gosh, that bio sounds so amazing. If I didn't know it was me, I would want to meet that person. That that sound really good.
Dr. Tami:Yes, it, it is. I love, my favorite part is like shaving what's possible,
Dr. Courtney:Yes.
Dr. Tami:Because you don't know what you don't know until you take the time to meet and collaborate with someone who can help illuminate maybe some of the things that you haven't quite seen yet.
Dr. Courtney:Yep. I mean, that's, that's what it's about. I think life is meant to be in a space of thriving and curiosity and, and coming around the. Coming around and being around people that could reveal your invisible spots. I won't say blind spots. I will say invisible spots because some things we just cannot see because they are invisible to us, but they're present to other folks and that's why I'm here. Um, and that's who I want in my life. Folks like that.
Dr. Tami:Absolutely. I like that idea of an invisible spot sometimes our life experience, right? It's just what we know,
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:it's not as clear as it would be to someone else. It also, it makes me think of that, um, commercial, like the nose blind commercial, like we're,
Dr. Courtney:Oh, when they started smelling the faze commercial
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:and they're smelling, and people was like, oh no, I don't smell anything. It's a pale full of garbage right there, but you smell faze and that's all you know because you can't smell your own trash.
Dr. Tami:Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was invisible to me until someone was like, Hey, uh, you might want to do a little something, something or think about this, or Have you thought about, about this? So, okay. Yeah. I'm sure we're gonna dig more into that as we go. But I do start every episode Talking about the journey into working when thinking about, you know, inclusive spaces and equity. to me it is a journey. It's not a sprint. I think there's a misnomer out there that like you go to a professional learning, session, you have one session with a coach, whatever, or it has to be this big, grandiose thing. But really it's about intentionality and learning and a process over time, which to me, it's never done. I mean, I've been doing this work for, you know, a quarter of a century. That sounds really long when I say it that way.
Dr. Courtney:Your season. Your season.
Dr. Tami:I'm
Dr. Courtney:Your season.
Dr. Tami:work. I like that. I'm gonna steal that.
Dr. Courtney:It's all right. You can borrow it. It's more.
Dr. Tami:Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm totally gonna borrow that. Um, yeah, so tell me a little bit about your journey. What has led you down this path and prompted you to, you know, become the founder of your organization's CLT and Associates? I became curious, went into college, um, and I said, okay, I gotta go to school for something. I know I wanted to be a teacher, but I didn't know what type of teacher. So while I was in college, I went back and forth. I was like, computer science education, computer science education landed on education. But while in college. I had a job working for an, an organization called Volunteers of America, and there I was working in group homes with individuals who did not have a literal voice. These individuals were, I. Lord, I, I hate to say it like this, but like state property where they had no family coming in to check on them. They had various abilities, traumatic brain injury, um, autism variability, and there I saw where there was a need for someone to be a voice for those who cannot speak for themselves and represent themselves. From there, I determine that major of being a special educator. So. I didn't enter this work through a textbook or a hashtag as many people do. I entered it through my life, um, as a special educator. My first year I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, from Alabama, and I had a student, I'll just use its initials. Ew, ew, did not speak. I had a teacher assistant and she said, oh, I've never heard him speak. I tried to speak Spanish. The Lord knows I cannot speak a lick of Spanish. I can say, oh, no, do trace, and I was trying to speak and I trying to speak in Spanish to another student, and that student, Ew, heard me speak in Spanish and he told me I was stupid. The teacher assistant turned around and said, I didn't know that child had a voice. I didn't know he could speak. Okay. I'm like, wait a minute, maybe I'm touched. Touched by an angel or something. So with this particular student, we began to converse Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:and I laugh. He laughed every day, like for the next few weeks. I said, something's not quite right. Why is this student in my class? I pulled out this student's paperwork. He had a file cabinet full of work. I spent weekends going through his paperwork, and I went and looked at his assessments. Come to find out this child came to the United States from Dominican Republic. Never had a formal English introduction. They tested him in English. By law, you're supposed to test a child in their native language. He spoke Spanish, so they identified him as a child with autism, which it was not that it was a language barrier. And being that his family, some of his family, they were not, um, citizens, US citizens yet. So some of them was stay away from the schools, but they knew he had to go to school. And that became a problem. That became a big problem. I got in some trouble. Trouble and I'm gonna tell was
Dr. Tami:I bet.
Dr. Courtney:good
Dr. Tami:trouble.
Dr. Courtney:trouble. John Lewis would've been happy because I said you all Have identified and put a label on this child in which it does not equate to where he is in his life and who he is. So he has been in this particular supposedly least restrictive environment all these years, which it was not least restrictive because it wasn't the right school setting or classroom setting, and it was a disservice. Then they said, oh, let's just give him a LD eligibility. You will not. You will give him services in summer school to help him get caught up, even though he may not have reached where he should have been at that particular time, but you're going to give him those supports because you failed him. That's the point. When I think about equity, giving a child what they need, giving a person what they need to be successful, you're not moving the bar.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:people have a misconception of equity of you're moving the bar and you're lowering the standards. No, the standard can be right here. It's about giving people the resources they need to meet the standard in respect that understanding the systems, the way that they were designed, they were designed by people who. Are the majority. And so when those systems are designed by the people who are the majority, why naturally they got biases and not all biases are bad, but those biases inform systems in which not everyone is around the table, even though the folks that should be around the table can actually enhance it and bring the natural resources.
Dr. Tami:Yeah, absolutely. I think that just brings up a really compelling point that we see a lot in education, right? The miss labeling of students, of them being, I'm gonna use the word stuck for a lack of a better word, in a particular track because of a moment. Like, we take the time right as someone to take in the time to really kind of understand who this student is and the language need, of the different path this child could have had. the beginning,'cause that's exactly what you did. You took time to understand the individual needs of the student in order to provide the best and most equitable support.
Dr. Courtney:Absolutely. I took the time and I took it personal. I took it personal. And some may say, you know, you can't take work personal. Listen, equity is not work for me. Equity is not abstract. It's deeply personal, uh, because. I am only as great as the people that I support and help.
Dr. Tami:Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. Work is not supposed to be personal. I don't think of, I don't think of this work as either. Like I, um, think of it more as. I'm gonna say my calling,
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:Because if we don't have people that are willing to have the conversation to interrogate the system, support broadening who is heard, to adjust the system. Then we're just gonna keep being like a hamster on a wheel, Going around and around and around. Um, I, I, were talking about the majority, and how the systems are built for the majority, so. Just curious as we are approaching where we are projected to have minority, majority in the United States. Have you? I think there's a lot of pushback is coming because of that. Like people know that, and I think it's, it's bubbled up some fear. Um, but how do you think that that shift in dynamic in this country might help shift some of the systems, if at all?
Dr. Courtney:Oh yeah, people. Fear is typically an outcome of trying to look into the future and trying to solve the future without remaining present and taking care of today. When I think about 2043 and there being a pivot or a shift, I still have a wondering of, yes, we know where the majority may lie today. Will the majority still be the decision makers? Because we can have a shift. We can have a shift demographically, but if. The decision makers, there is no pivot shift in the people who makes the decision, then we would still be in the same space. Um, I do see to your point where what we are experiencing now, um, right now in our current climate that. They're, they're enhancing, not, I would say enhancing. They're refining the systems because if they don't refine the systems right now, when we get to 2043, there will be a, a major pivot where the majority is now the minority. Like that's, I see. That's what's happening with the systems, like things that we are experiencing even today, they were designed 30, 40, 50 years ago, and so. If there is no shift in leadership, a shift in, uh, dynamic of who holds the decision, who holds the gavel, we will still be in the same space. Because as we tend to see, history still repeats itself. It's like it's repeating itself right now. If I think about civil rights, think about the segregated restrooms and water fountains. It's still the same. It looks a little different. Segregation and water fountains. We may not have water fountains, but in one part of the community or in the city. They may not have a store who have bottled clean bottled water. Still segregation. It just looks a little bit different. The root is still there because we didn't attack the root. We only been treating the symptoms.
Dr. Tami:Oh yes, absolutely. I, I was having a conversation with someone about that recently because of the current climate, like asking if. I have fear about, you know, hosting this podcast called The Equity Hour
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:doing this work, and I said, absolutely not because work. changed. We, it has always faced opposition. Like it never went away, even though, you know, there was a narrative. Like we're in a post-racial society once we had Barack Obama as president, like that was a narrative that was trying to be put out, but the experience didn't actually. Change. And, and you know, my personal theory is like, I think people double down after, um, Barack was president because fear of losing this, this power. that they've historically had and, and, and done whatever they can to keep. And that's not unusual, right? Like, you can look in across the, the world that the people in power try to stay in power.
Dr. Courtney:Absolutely. I, I think when we look at this work, and I'm doing my air quotes.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:When we look at this work for one, I also look at this as a business and strategic imperative that is, is vital, um, is vital. Equity in its essence is not charity because some people like to equate equity with charity and, and giving back to the community. No, it's clarity. When we think about leadership and as you said, post Obama. People doubled down. Uh, some people doubled down for the good, some people doubled down for, uh, worse over the bad. But when we look at leadership, leadership without inclusion, it is, uh, it's about control. I.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:About control to your point of being in power. And so if you're not inclusive and you're not including those voices in which they are more likely historically and systematically marginalized, including them in those spaces, you can do whatever you want and continue to do whatever you want. Um. But I believe eight pound baby Jesus sits high, look low in everything that people think is going to happen. It will eventually surface and, and it will, a boil will rise or come to a head like my grandmother say.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:because also in an effort to exclude equity and exclude people, you're creating a culture and you're teaching behaviors. And once you start teaching certain behaviors, you're gonna have a, an evolution that won't be televised on TikTok or YouTube. A revolution, not evolution. Revolution. My
Dr. Tami:a revolution. Um, so I wanna talk some a bit more about this, about, you know, building culture
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:And we think about building, an inclusive culture. Could be in school, that could be in an organization. I personally have noticed that there. Is a misunderstanding about what it truly means to be inclusive and in a belonging space, versus actually more of a controlling. Fit in air quotes, right. For the environment. Oh, okay. I, I see I am, uh, tempt of a key area. So let's, I know this is some of the work that you do, and I'm just so curious to hear some thoughts from you on this.
Dr. Courtney:I know I could say is blessed so heart. Um, blessed heart when I think about. Creating a culture and in a space of, like, even just with belonging, because we can have, we can have diversity. We have diversity without belonging, and, oh, oh, I, I notice something in my body. I notice something in my body because when I, I do the work and I support folks with creating an environment of belonging. I find that. There is a conflict with core behaviors and core values and who a person is beyond the organization. I come to find that when I look at organizations, in essence, organizations are made of people and each person represents an individual, and I see that there may be. Conflict when I do work with organizations to let's do this culture building, let's look at our culture. How would you rate your culture? I find that there is not alignment with even the leadership. And so of course the people that report to various leaders are not going to feel like they belong when they have to do some cross collaboration. And I find that core behaviors and people being. Focus on their wins and their personal agenda causes a lot of organizations to lose and not create a culture of belonging. Now, on the other end, I have worked with organizations where we focus on culture as a way it is. Culture was built into the budget, not just like, uh, a website where we, we believe in our people. No. Culture was a part of their budget. Culture was a part of their performance. It just like you had to meet a sales quote or a sales goal. Your data and your feedback from the people that you support, that's a part of your performance and that's one organization. I can say I saw a shift because the leadership did not just put out a statement, they made sure the systems were designed to support the culture of belonging, and so. When we did that work, we focus on rewarding the behaviors that we wanted because with culture, it can go twofold. Culture is built in behaviors that you reward. If you reward the behaviors that are not inclusive and does not promote belonging, that's what you'll get more of. And so if you're silent when it comes to challenging people to ensure that they, there are meeting agendas. Are inclusive, that they provide space for people to belong in their meeting agendas in their one-on-ones. Then if you're silent, then you're telling them that I tolerate a culture of exclusion. And so that particular company, they put their money in their systems in place because we are past that level of. Word play. I don't care about your equity statement. If I look at your budget, if I look at your performance review and I don't see that you're holding space for people to hold themselves accountable and empowering your staff to have the language that they need to push back where needed, or to acknowledge their leadership. And we have a problem. You're just doing word play. You're doing word words with friends. That's what you're doing. You're not giving the people what they need and you're not creating the culture. You, we gotta hold people in that space. We gotta hold them capable. Not only just accountable, because equity. Belonging, inclusion, accessibility, that's everyone's responsibility. Shared humanity is everyone's responsibility, not just leadership.
Dr. Tami:Yeah. Yeah. I think you bring up such a. Important point
Dr. Courtney:mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:I can think of a number of organizations, that I've worked with where yes, they had the equity statement. Yes. They said we value, um, different perspectives and ideas, and they say the on air quotes the right things. And there's not an investment in how to actually execute what that's gonna look like not always automatic. Like that has to be learned in some ways.'cause you know, we were just talking about these systems. These systems have been in place
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:a long time and we've all lived within them. So sometimes we don't even notice. The system until, like what we were talking about earlier, somebody, somebody else has a conversation with you and comes in and we have these conversations. So tell me about how do you provide space for everyone to voice, right, how they feel working here? Or do they have the opportunity to, you know. Share. And I, you know, I know there's always a tension between like, do you do that internally? Do you bring someone else in? And part of me is like, well, if you know that that's already a challenge, that that's your answer like, you don't have trust, so you can't have a sense of belonging if there's not a culture of actual trust as a foundation in your organization.
Dr. Courtney:Absolutely. If you don't have vulnerability based trust, it makes me think about the five behaviors. But if you don't have vulnerability based trust in your organization and you're in meetings and you're the person that's doing the majority of the talking. You're self-absorbed, and I'm just going to say it, you're self-absorbed and you have several invisible spots
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:and uh, I've seen, I've seen it, I've seen it in, I've seen it in government, I've seen it in private, I've seen it in school districts. I've seen it where it's all about work and talk in. Press releases of sort the things we're doing. These are the things that have been done, but I'm like, are you giving true data? Are you making data informed decisions? Because if you were to make data informed decisions, your data from your employee engagement, organizational health survey, you'll pull that qualitative data out and you'll address it, especially if you see that as a theme across the organization. It's, we can go on and on about this because.
Dr. Tami:So, okay. For our friends in organizations that are. say they've put out a culture survey, Whatever organization. It's could be a school, I'm a principal, it could be
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:corporation, you're finding that no one's responding
Dr. Courtney:Oh, they're not responding.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:That's a few things. As a consultant, if they're not responding, that lets me know that there may be a space where data informed decision making, the conditions are not set for that. That there may be where people are not having the conversation around data. Or it could be that they've taken surveys day in, day out and they are tired of taking surveys because they don't have any follow up.
Dr. Tami:Hmm.
Dr. Courtney:There's not a conversation, there's no space to talk beyond a project. Um, it may be that there is a culture of retaliation, so if I say this, this may happen. So let me just stay quiet
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:out of fear. Fear of the unknown, because the conditions have not been set. And so when you have either. You don't have data informed decision making processes or having a protocol and space to help people talk about data, because that may very well may be. Something that people don't understand how to talk about surveys, how to talk about data, how to take it in a, into their meetings and have a conversation and dig deep and have a critical analysis of it. They may not have that skill or that knowledge, so within that workspace, you need to let them know, Hey, we'll provide you with the, um, support that's needed, or as part of your role. In the job level, you're required to know and learn these things because we will use data to inform our decision making. And so it's either those things, not a data informed culture, the conditions to feel safe that I could take the survey without retaliation, or there may be an a space where I'm like, nah, I'm just not doing no survey. I did it last time. Nothing happened.
Dr. Tami:Absolutely. Absolutely. So. I am sure this is where bringing you in helps, organizations figure this out. Right. Do you feel like most organizations need that support of, an outside lens perhaps to work through how to get where they wanna go?
Dr. Courtney:Absolutely. Um, for a while I was like, anti consultant. Coming into an organization. But what I found, even in my leadership roles and working with various clients, you only know what you know based on your experiences and like you just, we talked about earlier was the The Blind nose test.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:You are so used to smelling certain scents. You're in it, you won't be able to see it. That's just like me standing in a block of ice for so long. I won't know anything different. I won't know anything different. And so when you bring in an external consultant who is in alignment and truly understands your mission, your vision, your OKRs, your KPIs, understand your old, your overall strategic plan.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:People have success because you have a partner. And so when I go into organizations, I come in as a partner, like I have a few that I'm collaborating and working with now, and I'm honest. I said, listen, I would not work for your organization if these things are not shifted. And they were like, oh, I didn't think of it that way. I go into the space as a thought partner if there are best practices within an organization. I see that it may be beneficial that they communicate what's happening behind the scenes. I may support them with their communication strategy'cause they don't understand what they don't understand. So it's, it's about partnership equity work. Air quote work. It is a partnership too. Meeting people where they are, and that's the approach I take with the organizations. I meet them where they are, but if they want to stay where they are, I tell them, you interviewing me. I'm interviewing you as a client. You may not be the person for me. I may not be your cup of tea. I'm caffeine free, but I have a lot of energy.
Dr. Tami:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important because it is a two-way street because it is a partnership and I think sometimes the, you know, idea of equity work or bringing in a consultant, people, I. I don't know. Sometimes it seems like their mind is like, oh, you're gonna force us to do something. It, it isn't about a, a forcing, it's about an awareness. And I, I believe that is where all of equity work begins. It begins with an awareness.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:have individual awareness, which is essential and then if we're looking at an organization, you have to have organization wide awareness, and then a system and a plan for. Now that I have this awareness, what do I wanna do? And how do I wanna do it differently?
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:to what you were talking about, about bias. I would say bias exists. It, it,
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:is not gonna ever go anywhere because as humans it's kind of innate and as it's built in from like life experience it however, becoming aware of it and then making considerations for how do I act or not act on something. Because I'm aware now
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:this bias is actually the essential work. And I know there's a lot of shame sometimes when we talk for people, when we talk about bias and, and emitting your bias, but I think that's true also within an organization, There can be historical bias within an organizational
Dr. Courtney:Yes. Yeah. Uh, some organizations I've seen, even in their hiring practices, I was working with one client took their onboarding process from 90 days to 45 days. And what I found was the reason their process was originally 90 days was because they had people who were part of the organization that wanted to be seen and felt like their work was more important. So versus them making a strategic leadership decision and say like, Hey. Your information will be shared with a new hire on this part of the journey. Let's move your work into the ever boarding part, because right now, when you onboard someone into an organization, they should really be focusing on building relationship and culture, not hitting the ground running. So when I see job descriptions say, hit the ground running, that means your culture is not important to the person. Um, you, you're saying to the person, my culture is not important. Like even when we think about bias and we think about change. It is. I like the ADKAR model. It's a change management model. That's my GoTo model. It's not a linear model, but ADKAR stands for awareness. It stands for knowledge. Well, lemme one outta order. Acknowledge, uh, awareness, um, desire, ability, knowledge, and reinforcement. And so when we think about. Being in a posture of equity and making sure we're incorporating it into the system. We gotta make sure there is an awareness like you shared individual as well as organization. Because once again, organizations are made up of individuals with their own perspectives, and so you have to have shared understanding and shared thoughts.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:You have to have a, uh. A space where people unite together. It's not saying that you have to become uniform, but unity does not mean uniform. Unity means we're coming together at the apex because we're all going in the same direction.
Dr. Tami:Ooh, I think you should say that, that part again, unity does not mean
Dr. Courtney:Mean uniform. No, unity does not mean uniform. Unity is not. Everyone dressed the same, saying the exact same language. It doesn't mean that there's a shared understanding, there's a shared thought. That's us moving towards the collective result together, unity and uniform uniformity is not unity. Unity is not uniformity.
Dr. Tami:You know. I have, I have, I have two thoughts, but I'm gonna go with this one first.
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:When we think about uniformity, I think about a lot of process and procedures inside schools. I.
Dr. Courtney:It's control. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:Um, and why it always makes me ask why, why, why, why do we feel we have to have such control over these kids? Like, you all have to walk the same way. You all have to dress the same way. You all like, are just top of mind
Dr. Courtney:because someone who had an idea that said, you know what, let's not let the kids express themselves. Let's put them in uniforms. Um, because it will. We had three people to do a peer reviewed, um, research and put out a journal article that stated that kids that are in uniforms, they behave better. So let's go ahead and put them in uniform. Let's begin to condition them for the workplace. It's like a pipeline. Let's condition them.
Dr. Tami:that's like the, the, you know, school to prison pipeline. You know, the, the, the biggest misquoted statistic that just gets on my nerves is about reading level in third grade, and kids are going to prison if they're not reading on grade level, if third grade.
Dr. Courtney:Uh, and the challenge I have with that is because with that study, it truly wasn't a study that followed those third grade students throughout their whole journey. It wasn't, you weren't waking up, you weren't going into their neighborhoods to see how they lived. You did not follow them through high school. It wasn't a thing.
Dr. Tami:no, it, it was not a longitudinal study. Like, and it just gets misquoted. Well, I mean, that's almost just like, oh, what is her theory? Like poverty, Ruby Payne. I don't even get, start on that. That wasn't even real research either. So like, I got some soap boxes, but these, these I do, I have some feelings. Uh, but here's what I've noticed. These negative research in air quotes, studies always predict, marginalized students having these very negative outcomes. And in order to. know, intercede in those outcomes, we're gonna put in this system of control.
Dr. Courtney:You gotta be the savior. We have to be the savior, um, because it's trouble. And so I can pull in research, but I'm gonna just keep it simple. What you look for is what you get. And if you go and you look to be the savior, you're gonna always find data and find situations that's meet that need. Um. Because you're right. The people that are doing the research is not inclusive research, because if it were inclusive research, the questions that you are studying, you would've actually asked that person to give you the language to ensure that there are shared language in the research that you're conducting. And I love to hear someone say, well, I just put out this new white paper. How many people read your white paper? 20 people. Let me know the impact of your white paper. Let me know. That white paper, that research you put out, how many people picked that white paper up and went? Lobbied. How many people picked that white paper up went and start volunteering in their community? How many people picked that white paper up and told the folks that they wrote about, thank you because I wrote this study about your experience. How many people are doing that? Give me the impact because they, they're intense. Bless their heart. Bless their heart. They intend to do great things with their white paper and their research, but my question is, what is your impact? Let me know your impact. Let me hear stories from those historical and systematically marginalized people that you're writing about.
Dr. Tami:Yes. Yes, yes.
Dr. Courtney:I can, it is Saturday. It's 85 degrees in Atlanta. I'm high. I'm heated. I get heated because this is something that is close and it's personal.
Dr. Tami:it is, it's so personal, part of my career I spent in higher ed and preparing future teachers and, um. I would always think about this. In the research and my, my personal research was usually narrative based, because it's about people's story. But also for me, I was like, I don't wanna take your voice outta the story'cause it's not really my story, it's your story. So, which is one of the, the challenges of anything like narrative, qualitative research base, how, me especially, I want to pro, I don't wanna say protect, I want to honor. The person who is being generous to tell and share their story to lead to potential impact for others it is not my story to tell. I may just be the vessel collects to disseminate
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:the story, and I think. That is a piece that is missing, like this is, yes, it is your research, but there are people that are affected and impacted by this. I can think of right now, say we have this, uh, this is a huge air quote, research around the science of reading, and Emily Hanford, who's not even a re literacy specialist, she's a journalist who got traction around why literacy instruction should be this one certain way and it's like taken off, right? This, to me, speaks exactly what we're talking about, systems. That benefit others over, you're fine. Like this is like, I don't know. This is great on my nerves.'cause I'm like she has a platform. Yes. But I think how we have discernment around whose voices. We're listening to whose um, solutions we're listening to and who is really at the table.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah. We have to be mindful. Of like our calling, our vocation because we can do more harm, especially when we are not putting the ones that matter at the center. And when we put ourselves at the center and our platform, we use our platform for the promotion of self. For our self-worth, we're causing more harm. And like I say, systems play out in which they are designed. You're contributing to a system that is already causing harm
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:that people, it's like I, I can vividly just see it. Someone building, continuously, building a system and they're. Building it. Then you have the other person tearing it down because it's causing hurt and pain and harm. But then you got someone who's catching those bricks, sliding it to someone else on the other side and sticking that brick back into the system. So you have another person who is building another person's dismantling. Then you have someone that's swooping in because of self
Dr. Tami:Mm.
Dr. Courtney:and they're putting the bricks back into the the other spot in which is causing even more harm.
Dr. Tami:Hmm. Yes. Yes, And know, I just think about the educators too, that we're losing because of this, right? Like we're also taking away their opportunity
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:respond in the ways that they should be able to as professionals.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:To the students that are in front of them.
Dr. Courtney:It's show up as your authentic self. When you show up as your authentic self as an educator, remember, yes, I believe in having code of ethics and being ethical and being respected, but I don't believe in the silencing of one's voices.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:It's like I mentioned a five behaviors earlier. It made me think about, we want to say the educators. Hey, we wanna first thing and let's pay them more. Payment is, is also financial, but it's also respect
Dr. Tami:Yes.
Dr. Courtney:and value. Can we pay them, uh, with the respect that they will go in and represent their school districts in the way that it should be represented, but in order for them to show up in that classroom, that way, the district must practice. And employ the systems that they want teachers to employ in their classroom. At the district level, there must be going back to the five behaviors you gotta have, and this is for equity, like when I think about equity work, but when I think about organizations as a whole
Dr. Tami:Mm.
Dr. Courtney:and having a healthy organization, you gotta have that trust. You gotta be open to conflict, be open to hearing that a teacher may say, the systems that we have in place right now. Not it, be open to that conflict. Don't, don't shut them down. You can accept, although you may not agree with what people are pushing back on, and, and it's the same for teachers, districts, teachers, but then you're able to get the commitment from commitment, accountability, and then you can get the result. If we want to build a space where we're thriving. We're making a place better than what it was before we started. Then we gotta have these elements in place, but we can't do it without having a community of belonging. We can't,
Dr. Tami:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Courtney:yeah.
Dr. Tami:Okay. So you were talking about job descriptions, And you know, you mentioned hit the ground running. I think something I see a lot in job descriptions. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are about this, um, is like, must be able to work in a fast-paced environment, pivot quickly with little direction or something those lines.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah, it is that code for saying we don't have our stuff together. And so you may not know what you're gonna do your first 90 days. Be okay with it, you're getting a paycheck and benefits be okay with it. And who's to say? I, I always see that, but very seldom do I say see efficient. I, it is very seldom do I say efficient, collaborative. I don't see a lot of that, and I also see people say, be entrepreneurial, which means code for, you're not gonna have all the resources you need, so you better figure it out.
Dr. Tami:I also think that entrepreneurial can mean like code for, you're gonna put in all the time necessary that may be an excess of what you should really commit to your employer.
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:Um,
Dr. Courtney:Yeah,
Dr. Tami:expect you to, to be there and show up when we want you to.
Dr. Courtney:absolutely. Like. Being but the other side of being an entrepreneur, which is also different, that people don't talk about, being an entrepreneur gives you the space to have the autonomy.
Dr. Tami:Yes.
Dr. Courtney:So if you're going to say, be entrepreneurial, have an entrepreneurial spirit, give me the space to have autonomy and be able to make decisions. Yes, I believe in protocols and processes and workflows and automation. I believe in that. Um, I do. What I also believe in is human intelligence. You hired me for this skillset, so please don't micromanage. Please don't micromanage individuals. If you say this, this is my thing. If I give you the destination and I've, we have a grounding of core behaviors. Core values, and like integrity is one of them, and that's something that I expect of you as you should expect of me. I don't care how you get to that destination, as long as I'm there to support you, give you feedback just in time and that we get there and that you feel supported. That's what matters.
Dr. Tami:Yes,
Dr. Courtney:That's what matters. It's just like on when I drive to Alabama and it's when I drive to Alabama, there's um, always road work on I 85 South. Our 85 south, it's always road work. It says, and the speed limit is a trap. It says 80 miles. And you go, literally, you don't even go. You go about half of a mile, 80 miles to 50 miles, 75 to 40. You're going, you're picking up some space, you're accelerating. Hit the brakes. Accelerate, hit the brakes, accelerate, hit the brakes. That's causing so much harm and damage. It's causing you to be out of alignment.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:It's causing you to be out of alignment'cause you're gonna slam on brakes, do some damage to your brakes, and have to control your car because you're probably going at a speed and then somebody's in front of you slamming on brakes and you're hitting potholes because that's another thing. But you're out of alignment. You're outta
Dr. Tami:Yes.
Dr. Courtney:alignment. You're out of alignment. And some of these job descriptions are written out of alignment.
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:if they took the organizational culture data, the org health survey data that they get, and write their job descriptions, what would they say?
Dr. Tami:Mm. That's a
Dr. Courtney:would that net promoter score say?
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:to put that in your job description?
Dr. Tami:Yeah.
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:That's an interesting idea too. Like we're always worried about external net promoter score, are we also looking internally?
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:65% of the employees said they would not refer it to a friend, this place to a friend. You put that in the job description and see what happens.
Dr. Tami:Yeah. That's powerful, powerful data.
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:that's essential for organizations to be looking at.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:you know, you see it, you know, you see it time and time again. Right?
Dr. Courtney:Yeah.
Dr. Tami:thinking about that speed analogy, like, do this, oh no, don't do this, do this. No, don't do this. Like, oh, like exactly what you
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:you because you are innovative and X, Y, or Z. But now I wanna micromanage how you do that.
Dr. Courtney:Gas lighter's finest.
Dr. Tami:You know. Ooh. Like that, that, that was a personal little trigger right there.
Dr. Courtney:I, so sometimes I say trigger, but I like to change my words. I say, oh, it activates me. It activates me.
Dr. Tami:Yeah. That, that one activates me, Courtney. It activates me
Dr. Courtney:Aw,
Dr. Tami:like, I'm a little confused.'cause when you hired me, you said, this is what you value about me, but now you're not letting me do the part that you actually.
Dr. Courtney:yeah.
Dr. Tami:Value.
Dr. Courtney:Yeah. And, and it is, it is particularly different like when we think about school districts and places that support learning of others in, I heard this, I was doing a session at, um, for Soar Atlanta, which is Sherms. Local, like Atlanta conference, and one thing a person said is that. I find it challenging for me to work for a company in which we don't use our own products,
Dr. Tami:Oh. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney:and I am struggling because I feel that if we are going out selling a product, we need to have internal customers first. And they were talking about their learning systems starting within, and I was like, Hmm. Oh, it's powerful'cause how can you sell something in which you don't have experience or you believe in.
Dr. Tami:yeah. It's the back to that, to me, that's put your money where your mouth is.
Dr. Courtney:Yep. Lemme see a budget. Lemme see a budget.
Dr. Tami:see your budget. Look, money talks like they always say that money talks. And it
Dr. Courtney:does.
Dr. Tami:It tells you where your values are. It really does like what? Personal values, organizational value, like all the things it tells you where your values are,
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:um, with what you wanna invest in. So, okay. Well, Courtney, I feel like I could just keep talking and talking. And talking to you. Um, but I do want to be mindful for our, our listeners listen to the podcast, but I do like to end always with like, what is just a piece of advice you wanna give someone who's out there wanting to engage with, know, equity, diversity, inclusion, belonging, um, maybe they're new on the path, maybe they've, you know, been on the path for a minute. What, what's your best advice for our listeners?
Dr. Courtney:Don't be weary in your wellbeing while you do. Don't be weary in your wellbeing while you're doing, because in order to engage and make shifts and change, you have to be near hold yourself and you have take action. Um, we don't need another type statement so it. If you are in a space and you want to truly contribute to change, know that you can't do it alone. You can do it in partnership, but don't be weary in your wellbeing while doing.
Dr. Tami:That is perfect advice, um, because it is one that we sometimes can burn ourselves out with our intentionality around this work.
Dr. Courtney:Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami:I want you all to be mindful of that as you move through, as you look to use your voices. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Equity Hour. Of course, you can find a link for Dr. Courtney, her website, and all of her services in the show notes. Until next time.
Dr. Courtney:All right, my friends.
