The Equity Hour
Welcome to The Equity Hour, a Dragonfly Rising podcast where we delve into powerful conversations on social justice, equity, education, and personal growth. Join your host, Dr. Tami Dean—an experienced leader, coach, speaker and facilitator with over 25 years of expertise—as she offers practical tips, resources, and actionable strategies to help you integrate equity into learning and working environments. Whether it’s a solo episode filled with insights or an engaging discussion with passionate educators, thought leaders, and change-makers, each episode is designed to inspire and empower you to create more inclusive and equitablespaces. Tune in each week to explore the challenges and successes of fostering diversity, inclusion, and cultural competence in schools and beyond.
The Equity Hour
The False Choice: Equity, Adoption & Abortion
Author and PhD student Shannon Quist joins Dr. Tami to unpack the false binary of adoption vs. abortion—and the equity issues hiding in plain sight. We trace the Baby Scoop era, Roe v. Wade, evangelical politics, and present-day practices like safe haven boxes and sealed birth certificates. Shannon shares her adoptee journey, the identity costs of transracial adoption, and why open records and community care matter. If you’ve wondered who profits, who’s protected, and who’s erased, this conversation offers language, history, and actions to move beyond either/or thinking toward real reproductive and adoptee justice.
Shannon’s TEDx Talk: Would You Rather? Adoption vs. Abortion
Coaching Discovery Call
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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Equity Hour with me, your host, Dr. Tami. I am so excited for our guests today. We're gonna get to dive into some what shouldn't be controversial but is now controversial topics around equity, but I mean, what isn't controversial at this point anymore. But anyway, I have Shannon Quist with me today. Hello. Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist:Hello. Happy to be. Here.
Dr:So happy to have you. Let me tell y'all a little bit about Shannon. Shannon Quist is a PhD student in Rhetoric at Texas Woman's University in Denton. She's the author of the novel Roses Locket and the Poetry Collection Mirrors Made of Ink. Her master's thesis focused on an adoptee, written narratives and resulted in a narrative theory. She calls Phantom Worlds. Hmm. Intriguing, which examines the function of character constructed fantasies in narrative. She recently gave a TEDx TW talk about adoption and abortion, which is now available on YouTube. Welcome Shannon.
Shannon Quist:Thank you.
Dr:Yeah. Yes. Yes. And for listeners, I will link her TEDx talk in the show notes so you can take a look at that. Um,'cause of course you were gonna wanna run over and watch it after we talk about it today.
Shannon Quist:Yeah, it's a spicy one.
Dr:You know, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I know we talked before Shannon, like about potential for standup comedian and I think it's there. I think it's there. There's some good little gems y'all in this TEDx talk that you just have to listen to know. I'm not gonna give away, I'm not gonna be a spoiler. So, uh, we're not gonna give away the baby with the bath water today, but. So Shannon, one of the things that, I always like my listeners to know and hear about is each of my guests equity journey, because one of the things I talk about is there are lots of different avenues to the work of equity and inclusion. And I think it's really important for people to hear how people got involved in this work and also that this work is not a one-time thing. It is not a sprint. It is a marathon. And you're like, she's like, yes, she's not. Yes. Like it's this lifelong journey. Like I think who we are when we start and enter the work may not be the same as we are today, which is to me what this work is all about, right? Like growing and learning and um. Reflecting on how we engage and learn about other people. So I would love for you to share a little bit about your entry into the equity space.
Shannon Quist:I mean, definitely. So exactly. Like you say, it's been a long journey and I'm gonna be here a lot longer.
Dr:Yes.
Shannon Quist:as you've mentioned, I'm an adopted person. I was adopted at birth and, um, I went through some real hard teenager years where at the time I thought, this is so wrong. Everything feels wrong, right? But at the time, I didn't have like the vocabulary to articulate. How I was feeling and why I was feeling that way. A lot of times I reflect and think that my entry into this work, like the activism part, the speaking out part, the educating myself part, it really happened when I got divorced. I got divorced when, I was in my bachelor's degree
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:and my daughter was two. And, um. Losing a family because you do, you lose the family when you get divorced. It, it almost shocked my entire system into remembering, oh, I've lost a family before. Right.
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:So, I went straight into my master's after my bachelor's and started looking into adoption. One of the first projects I did was research assistantship looking at Edna Gladney. She's credited with, um. With removing the stamp illegitimate
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:from birth certificates. That's
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:know her for. And she is, adoption agency in Fort Worth is named after her. Right? Because she did this great big thing. Um, well, we got into the research and there's not. Actually any proof
Dr:Oh
Shannon Quist:did that, that she was responsible for that. Now, she may have known some of the lawyers or politicians that were responsible for that,
Dr:yeah.
Shannon Quist:by the time I came sniffing around, everyone had passed away and there was not a paper
Dr:Oh wow.
Shannon Quist:Right. And so, and then I started looking into the Edna Gladney organization, the adoption agency, and immediately was very repulsed by their practices. Um, uh, started realizing there's some things about adoption that I, an adopted person have never thought about, have never seen. And so, you know, I, I went on this deconstruction journey and I wrote my novel. I on to, investigate adoptee written narratives in my master's thesis. And boy, when I tell you I was a different person back then, compared to where I stand now, I just, I wish I could go back in time and be like. going to be so radical little Shannon.
Dr:I look, let's just be honest. I think we all would love to go back and tell our younger selves like you were gonna get through this it. You may not understand why you're experiencing this challenging moment in time today, but it will, you know, all make sense and. Recently my daughter had asked me like a question about some challenging, personal things I had experienced. I'm a, domestic violence, survivor, and she's like, would you change? I was like, honestly, I don't wish that on anyone, but I don't know if I would change it because it's also like having lived and grown and. Move through that, like made me who I am today. Right. So, so while, what's that saying? Like instead of looking in the rear view mirror,'cause it's smaller, like look through, um, you know, the windshield, something like that. Somebody said something like that. But, but I love that, right? Like, how can we say and think and have this talk to our younger selves? And I recently just did this meditation exercise where I like was supposed to meet my future best self.
Shannon Quist:Ooh, I'm intrigued.
Dr:Right. And so you're imagining like, what, what does your future best self say to you? What does she or he, you know, look like? What is, all of these things, right? And so how do we then move through the world thinking of ourselves? Responding to what would our best self say to us when we, we move
Shannon Quist:Oh,
Dr:through this world? Yeah.
Shannon Quist:immediately I'm struck with this sense of like, I know, I know what. What that lady would say,
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:say, write more, double down, speak up.
Dr:Yes. Yes. And I think that that is the most important thing, like, I know people are like, oh, no regrets. But I think part of no regrets is when you're seeing injustice, when you're seeing and know that there are things that are happening that are not right, that you use your voice, whether that's a verbal voice, whether that's a written voice, what, whatever that is, make change, right? Or just not let it happen.'cause is your future self gonna be like, why didn't you say something?
Shannon Quist:Exactly. Exactly. And silence and complacency are so, they're so easy. But we cannot fall into that kind of thing. It's, it's just toxic and dangerous.
Dr:It is, and I think people, and I think people sometimes think, well, I'm just one person.
Shannon Quist:Okay.
Dr:Right. Um, which yes you are. But one of the reasons I have this podcast is right, like, yes, you are just one person, but your journey, Shannon may speak to someone else who's not sure if they wanna speak out and like, by sharing your voice. You build a community and people feel less alone. And historically, as human beings, we have shared and connected with each other via story and narrative and, used to just all be oral history. But now we have so many different ways to document, our life experiences, right? And yes.
Shannon Quist:Yes, exactly. Okay.
Dr:You know, I mean, you've written a book, you've written some poetry those are both written, but they're different ways of sharing. And when I think about, um, your Ted. Talk. Okay. So I had, I was like, whew, okay. First of all, I love, like, Moses was the original adoptee. I was like, snaps, snaps. Like, so true, so true. But I think you bring up some really good points in there that, I found really compelling and interesting. Right. And I would love, I don't wanna give away the whole thing, but one of the things that you talk about is, you know, we had some shift in adoption. We, you talked about Roe versus Wade, and just for those that you know, you know, it's called would You Rather Right. Be And it's, it's a, her TEDx talk is about, you know, adoption versus abortion and this, this versus that, which. Let's be honest. It's not an either or type of situation, which is the point of your, your whole talk, but you talked about racism and adoption.
Shannon Quist:Yes. So that is a major point of the story that I think we willfully ignore um, well, on one hand. We are thinking about adoption and abortion as these binary choices, and they're not.
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:just simply not. But the reason they're in conversation with each other at all is because of what happened in the second wave. So the baby scoop era ended essentially when Roe v Wade was passed, and so all of a sudden there were. Less white babies because in those days, who were the people adopting white Christians? Right?
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:And we've sold America on this idea of the perfect nuclear family. There's a mama, there's a daddy, and there's little babies, and they live in a house and there's a picket fence and there's a dog, right? And so when, when women were struggling with infertility, this was sold to them as well. Don't worry, you could just buy a baby.
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:one, right? Get, buy your washer machine, buy your, you know, dryer and buy a baby. So 1950s, like it just hurts. What happened was that, um, the reason Christians turned against abortion was because they were trying to get votes for desegregating schools, and so they, they knew they couldn't run on that issue so they basically had to, to find another way to get their congregations to vote in their favor, and so they convinced them abortion. It's abortion. I.
Dr:Okay, so just to clarify, they were for or against desegregation when they lumped abortion together for their congregation.
Shannon Quist:They wanted desegregation, they wanted segregation,
Dr:Okay?
Shannon Quist:wanted whites only schools.
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:And um, I think Brown V. Board of
Dr:of education. Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:Passed, and so all of this desegregation was happening and they were pushing back against it,
Dr:Okay. So it's, you know, that's really interesting to me how, you know, history. Just always tends to repeat itself, which when people say humanities aren't important, oh my God, they absolutely are. Right,
Shannon Quist:so important.
Dr:right. So, Hmm.'cause what, okay, this isn't about this. I'm like, sorry, I have like thousands of thoughts going through my head right now and I'm trying to decide which one I wanna pick up on. But like, to me, this goes back to when we think about, um, Jim. Crow like historically, like poor whites used to be in alignment with blacks because they were actually the most similar in lack of access, discrimination, like all of these things
Shannon Quist:right.
Dr:like powerful, wealthy whites shifted the narrative like, Hey. You wanna come have privileges like us so come be a part of us. You don't wanna be over there'cause we're gonna do these things. And this is like the least historically inaccurate restating of this. Y'all like look up the history, the real history. But you know what I'm saying? This is kind of what had happened, right? Like this is the, this is the Cliff's Notes version, y'all. Like come, come be with us.'cause you don't wanna be a part of that.
Shannon Quist:Some of that happened in adoption too. Georgia
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:selling babies to all kinds of people in Hollywood, you know, and so Hollywood Stars are, and, and Edna Gladney, she's featured in a 1940s movie, and it, it gave a burst to the adoption industry, and that's what it became. It became industry.
Dr:Oh, for sure and we see it today, wealthy, white. Persons in power are making decisions that only benefit other white, wealthy persons, but the majority of the people supporting them are not white wealthy persons because they've, that narrative is still existing, so. When I think about equity and diversity and inclusion, we think about like social narratives. And this just to me is like one of those social narratives, right? And you brought up Reagan, God, we can thank Reagan for so many things. Like, like even like, the drugs, like, you know, just that whole thing. Like I had not realized that Reagan was such a huge catalyst for this adoption. Versus abortion belief that we now sort of buy into that, the collective propaganda has taught us that it's an either or situation. And like you were just saying, like right, like there is like a million shades of gray in between those two options.
Shannon Quist:Right, right. are, and if you wanna talk about Reagan, I don't know if you heard the news, but this week. James Dobson just passed away
Dr:Mm.
Shannon Quist:um, he was the founder of Focus on the Family. I, uh, I jab at him in the TEDx
Dr:Yes.
Shannon Quist:and he actually Dobson, uh, he, he founded Focus on the Family. This, Christian Evangelical group that helped, helped parents, parent their. Children into Godly adults, um, which is obviously what I am. But he served as an advisor, not only for Reagan, but also for, uh, Trump in 2016.
Dr:Hmm.
Shannon Quist:And so he lobbied against L-G-B-T-Q persons He supported, um, he supported. Beating your children. And importantly, even though he said at some point in the seventies that the Bible doesn't talk about abortion at all, uh, he famously became very big, very anti-abortion. so he not only influenced families around the country, he influenced politics around the country.
Dr:Yeah, so I, I wanna come back'cause. To talk about like the baby scoop and what that is.'cause I don't know if everybody kind of knows what that is. And then, kind of what happened when, the, the white invent, the white Evangelical, I can't speak today. Christians, you know, decided to lump in abortion. To their cause.
Shannon Quist:So I mean, the baby Scoop era was kind of at towards the end of World War into the seventies,
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:was passed and it was just this really, and you know, like past World War ii, everything got really weird in America. We, we often harken back to those days, right? We have a lot of nostalgia for the 1950s for some reason. And because nuclear families were so heavily like marketed, I guess,
Dr:right.
Shannon Quist:That's kind of when adoption sprung. And you know, you think about a lot of corporations that are still standing today. They began in the 1950s. There was kind of this like just economical resurgence and adoption got onto the bandwagon, the evangelical stuff didn't really come around until the late seventies, mean. Roe had passed and everything was groovy, as they may have said in the seventies. There was all of this like uprising. There was Vietnam going on second wave, feminism going on all of this like anti-racist stuff,
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:It was a wonderful civil rights era
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:and um, and the evangelicals were pushing back against the civil rights stuff and somehow abortion got roped into it. And then, James Domson and others got into Reagan's ear and that's, I think when it really got pretty political.
Dr:Yeah. And really stayed
Shannon Quist:Yeah,
Dr:political.
Shannon Quist:staying power, so.
Dr:Yeah. Which, you know, of course we had the recent, overturning of. Roe versus Wade. And so I'm curious when we, in the adoption versus abortion argument, how do you, like, what have you seen in your work with how that overturning of that really essential legislation has come into play? Um, more recently.
Shannon Quist:Mean, it's harming people. It's harming people because now instead of a guaranteed right across the country, it really depends on what state you live in. And, I live in Texas, so not great. Women are dying. Women are dying. I was really disturbed to see earlier this year, the woman in Georgia
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:was pregnant, as you know, she was in a, was essentially dead.
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:Um, but they kept her body alive to keep the baby alive. And then, put her to rest after the baby was
Dr:came to.
Shannon Quist:It came to term. Um, and I, I think a lot of it is just how we look at women in this country. Right because I will say that like when Roe v Wade fell, some very important people on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court are adoptive parents. and that's part of my political frustration is that we have adoptive parents who are high up. They're on the Supreme Court. Governor Greg Abbott of Texas is also an adoptive parent and using their power harm. And what I mean by that is, court Justice. Amy Coney Barrett, did an interview or, or maybe this was in of the oral arguments, I think, she said in reference to, safe havens that, um, they just, the baby boxes where women can just deposit the baby into a box and a, and leave it. Well,
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:problem. That's the problem. It's solved. If you don't want the baby, then just drop it off. But that doesn't account for of pregnancies. It doesn't account for kind of accountability to provide records of any kind to that child, which is deeply irresponsible. I mean, I. I hesitate to say lucky'cause that's a little bit of a trigger word, but I am lucky that I at least had records my parents,
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:um, and could later go on and find them. who are deposited in safe haven boxes do not, they don't have records. They're left alone in a box. can we not treat babies like this? Please?
Dr:It is wild. To me that we remove the woman who is, and, and sometimes not even a woman. Sometimes it's a child carrying a child,
Shannon Quist:Right.
Dr:Outta the equation, and it, the regression. Into shaming of women for being pregnant in the first place.
Shannon Quist:Yeah.
Dr:Really does go back to what you were talking about, like this enamor with like the 1950s. In all of the shame, around. Being pregnant, you know, having sex before you got married, right? But it also, this false love for that ignores all of the other things that weren't in, you know, in existence, like it is women could not even have their own, bank of card and credit card until 1972. I was born in 1976, like. So like it is not that long ago.
Shannon Quist:Well, and what? Marital rape wasn't even outlawed until the 1990s.
Dr:Right.
Shannon Quist:Yeah,
Dr:So this idea again, that women are second class citizens to even unborn, children
Shannon Quist:right.
Dr:is. Just wild to me. Like I don't, my mind cannot wrap around how someone can be like, yeah, this is okay. And to me this is like, the patriarchy is still very strong, everyone, that is why these things. Are being decided. And I don't know that everyone realizes like we all grow up with these like social norms that we aren't even necessarily spoken, but because of like how we're spoken to what media says, like what, you know, like this idea of the nuclear family, like the myth of meritocracy that exists in the United States. Like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Like even the idea of. How we think about sex and alcohol and all of those things, if we look at the United States compared to, quite honestly, the majority of the world, they don't have as much shame associated with some of these pieces, especially around your, your, your body
Shannon Quist:right. And it is so much about the body,
Dr:mm-hmm. Yeah. And. It's just like, where do we, hmm? Where do we, we go from here, right? Because the overturning of that also means that women are not getting needed healthcare because, you know, natural miscarriage. Is a, is it just, it is a common thing. It happens, and I mean, I know you know this, but sometimes when that happens, it doesn't fully, you know, release from the body and you need to have a DNC in order to, you know, clear out your uterus. Right. So you can live women and you see these stories in the news all the time. Women can't even get that
Shannon Quist:because their health providers are scared.
Dr:yeah. Yeah. And. Oh, I remember. Okay, so I grew up Catholic
Shannon Quist:Oh boy.
Dr:and I remember in high school going through, the sacrament of confirmation, right? And, they had,
Shannon Quist:Yeah.
Dr:they had a pro-choice speaker. Come in and gave us like this pin that was supposed to represent, you know, a baby's a fetus's, feet at a certain amount of time, which, you know, as an adult now, that's actually totally false. Like the, the feet aren't even that developed at the time that they said it was. So, I don't even know where I'm going with this story except that. People need to learn how to dig into the history of things or like, is this actually true? Is this propaganda? Is it, speaking to ethos, pathos, like all those things like
Shannon Quist:right.
Dr:it's aod and emotional. We can't kill babies, oh my gosh. What was that? Do you remember that? Where someone's like, it was like a presidential debate or something about. Killing babies. Like, like it was saying something about a state and like a baby was born and like the rep was like, no, in no state is it legal to murder a child ever born?
Shannon Quist:Oh yes, I do remember that. Oh my gosh. But yes, a post term abortion.
Dr:Yes. Like this is the in right. Like, but this is the insanity. Of the things we're, we're, we're going through. So, okay. I, I feel like I've, like taken us like a totally into left field, but like to me it's like all related, right? Like all of these,
Shannon Quist:related.
Dr:all of these, these things and so we say your choices are adoption or abortion, right? Like, and we're saying that in a good, bad
Shannon Quist:Yeah, good, bad life, death way, because death is abortion and life is, adoption, but it's, it's just not that. At all. Like I could go into so many, like what if scenarios that would just, we don't even have time for'em all, and, and that's the thing is like we all deserve to have individual stories play out the way that we want them to play out. Abortion needs to be available. the way that the adoption industry works right now, don't think it's working. You know, so I've recently been looking at this story'cause I began all of this research as like recovery, right? Trying to recover these lost voices and identify the propaganda, break it down. But this is a bigger story than I think I, we, we realize, I think that, there is this parallel between adoption. How we're, we're selling babies, we're separating them from their families legally. Right? And, and settler colonialism separating the natives from their land, taking their children into boarding schools, adopting them out, making them assimilate to the the white culture I, adoption is only a symptom of that, it parallels it. On the family level. Does that make sense?
Dr:It does make sense to me. Because when we think about, and I know you talked about and touched on this a little bit in your TED talk, who is adopting and who is adopting which children and how are those children having access Right? To, you know, culture, racial history, awareness around how you might adopt a child that is outside of your race, but how their life experience might, be different
Shannon Quist:Right. Absolutely. So, yeah, I I was adopted by a white family. I know you can tell it by looking at me, but I genuinely was so whitewashed that I couldn't tell it about myself. Looking in the mirror. I am Mexican. I have a deep love of chips and queso that I have denied for so many years because for my emotional safety and wellbeing, had to deny it.
Dr:Mm.
Shannon Quist:Does that make sense?
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:Yeah. And so, you know, it's not just like the legal separation, although that is a factor because adopted persons, they, they, in many states, the majority of states in America, their original birth certificates are sealed. They can never access them, they're issued new birth certificates that list them as the biological. Offspring of their adoptive parents. The birth certificate is not a medical document. It's a legal document. a, a fiction.
Dr:Yeah, that is, I don't even know how to say that. I didn't even know that. Like, that is wild to me. Like why, why would you list adoptive parents as the birth parents? Like they're not birth parents, they're adoptive parents. Like why not build. And I, I feel like this is almost a rhetorical question, but why not build a legal document that says birth parents, adoptive parents? Like why not name it what it actually is
Shannon Quist:Because that would strip adoptive parents in the agencies of power money. That's why I.
Dr:what, okay. Because I don't know, like what power do they get by hiding that information?
Shannon Quist:The adoptive parents historically have this fear of the birth parents coming back trying to seize the child back. So the legal protections are a way to say, no, we own this child. Here's the paperwork to prove it. the birth certificate where our names are listed. Here's the divorce decree. You know, we, we paid money, and of course the adoption agency is, they've gotta make their money. I can just see you thinking, and I'm sorry I'm dumping all of this on you.
Dr:No, that's the whole point of this podcast, and you know. I am sure those of you listening, we just needed to pause for that for a moment because the idea right, that an adoption agency is there to make money versus being a social service.
Shannon Quist:Right.
Dr:Is wild because I would guess that most of you listening right now think of adoption agencies as social services, and if there's social services, they're not there to make money. They are there to support people theoretically.. I.
Shannon Quist:But in all reality, when I was researching the Edna Gladney, center in Fort Worth, domestic adoptees in current day and age. babies who are born here in Fort Worth, uh, they go for about 45 grand. You want a baby from Fort Worth? It's 45 grand.
Dr:Which.
Shannon Quist:You should get a car instead, you,
Dr:That's about the going right for a car nowadays, which is wild. Okay, so that dollar amount, which, you know, people know adoption isn't inexpensive. Just like, treating infertility isn't inexpensive. None of these things are inexpensive right. To me, this also. Brings up an equity issue of access, right? Who are we trying to make sure meets the quote unquote narrative of the ideal family? Like,
Shannon Quist:families are mostly wealthier
Dr:right. Well obviously'cause if it's$45,000 like
Shannon Quist:Yep.
Dr:are you worthy? To me, this also goes back to this other narrative, about like, are you worthy? To have children and who is worthy right to, to do that, to raise children. And so we've made it very expensive there's, and then on the flip side, the irony of this to me is then you're gonna force people who maybe are like, I am not, like one of those gray areas is like, I am just not in a financial or mature position or whatever the decision is to have a child right now. Right?
Shannon Quist:right?
Dr:Children are not inexpensive.
Shannon Quist:And then there's the further of, of these women who are not financially able. The adoption agency is getting$45,000 when in reality, a birth in hospital fees maybe cost seven grand. Like, what I like to tell is the story of the day I was born, right? I was born, um, my parents were there. They released me from the hospital, should say. All three of my parents were there. My adoptive parents came and picked me up from the hospital. They released me two days. My mother stayed there. My birth mother, uh, she got sick and so she stayed in the hospital. I'd already been taken. And then after, um, she was finally released, they released her straight out onto the streets. There was no social services that said, Hey, do you, you know, need, need housing? Do you need help?
Dr:You need some counseling. You just gave a, a child you carried for nine months. What you know?
Shannon Quist:Nope. She had served her purpose. They turned her out onto the street. No compensation. She did live in the, the maternity home during the pregnancy, and she was taken care of there. You know, she was given housing and food or whatever, but the moment she delivered the product, it was over.
Dr:I don't know why I'm getting flashes of Handmaid's Tale right now, but I am, in my mind like.
Shannon Quist:Girl, I tell you.
Dr:You know, like that, like like women are just incubators for babies
Shannon Quist:mm-hmm.
Dr:I'm also thinking about women who are, you know, forced to carry to term maybe in a more challenging economic state. And at the same time we're saying, you have to have this child, but then we're cutting all services to help them support the child if they don't have like, right, like. At the same time, we're making these decisions in tandem, and I don't think people are necessarily thinking about how that affects the overall experience or life of the mother or, and the father and or, you know, right. The caregivers of this child and the child itself.
Shannon Quist:Right. exactly. And I think again about like the separation that's happening here, because in all actuality like to talk about adoption as if it's just a birth mother, just a baby, and just the adoptive parents. But in reality, that birth mother has a family. You know, can, can an aunt take care of the baby? Can the grandparents step in? Is there a best friend down the street? What's going on? We've separated people from their communities
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:and then we're making profit off it. We're making profit off of these familial separations. We're making it legal, we're putting it in ink, and just, I ran outta steam. I'm just so mad.
Dr:I don't even, okay, so I don't even know what to say anymore. Like that's where I'm at right now and like that is very rare that I am. A speechless person. Let's just be what's call spade is spade. Like I usually got something to say, for real. Sometimes I don't always say it, but there's always usually something going on up in this little head of mind. I'm really feeling some sort of way about this, so I guess I wanna just kind of like, I think we've got so much for people to think about. In what we've been sharing. So I guess I would like us to kind of think about two things as we kind of wrap up our conversation for today. Like one, do you have any thoughts on what might help mitigate moving away from this dichotomy? And then two, what is sort of one thing you want the listeners to take away, from something they should do or could do? When it comes to thinking about equity and racism and all the things related to adoption and abortion.
Shannon Quist:Well, I think for the first bit. Personally I am, I am an abolitionist. I believe that we have to dismantle the system before we can build back something better, but I recognize obviously that in the way of, of most projects like this, we do have to have a But in the meantime, and for that, I think that we need to start listening to Of the parties involved in adoption and, and even related communities like, foster care and, conceived people. They're having a really big moment right now. All of these people who in some way are dealing with, severance from their families, they have really important things to say and they say it across the spectrum of, you'll, you'll, you'll hear all kinds of stories.
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:So I think that's important. And also, like I see a lot of really great work going on in, like the social work and therapy, corners, like, people who have been through these kinds of, traumas and, and life situations, they, they need support. And I'm glad to see that more and more people are recognizing that this is a very unique situation that needs unique support.
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:Um, can you ask the second part of the question again?
Dr:I absolutely can. The second part was right, listeners might be feeling a little bit overwhelmed too. And so I really like them to leave with like, what is one thing you wanna suggest that they could do or they could think about, as they, they maybe try to do their own work in this area or learn more.
Shannon Quist:Yeah, I mean, I think listening is honestly some of the best advice here because, there is, there is a lot. Of stuff everywhere. And when you Google it, you will come across it. you know, listen and engage with it in good faith, obviously. Don't be a troll, just listen and ask your questions. because I think that's how we learn and it's how we build community with each other. And I think I, I really come from like a feminist background. I mean, how could I not, But this idea of like coalition amongst different groups of oppressed minorities,
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:it's just, it's not just women. It's not just adoptees. It's not just LGBTQ plus people. It's, it's, it's all of us
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:all have to band together and, you know. up against racism and ableism and homophobia and xenophobia and all of the things we're stronger together. Um, so just being in the room while a conversation is happening is helpful.
Dr:Mm-hmm.
Shannon Quist:Um, and honestly resting a lot of my work, you know, um. I kind of flit in and out of the public eye, and that's because I recognize that I, I always have to get back up, right,
Dr:Yeah.
Shannon Quist:and shout into the ether in the hopes that somebody hears me. But I also have to rest.
Dr:Yes.
Shannon Quist:And that is very important self-care, because this kind of work is ongoing. It's gonna be a lifelong journey, and it's not gonna end with my lifetime. Your lifetime.
Dr:Right.
Shannon Quist:All of this is going to continue going, so we have to take those moments, rest, a drink of water, and get back up.
Dr:Yeah, absolutely. I. Fully agree with what they apart about rest. Um, because it can feel like this is so overwhelming and you just have to keep going and just keep going. Like just keep swimming. And you do, but you have to right. You do have to rest, I, I really lean into like rest as resistance and if you haven't read that, you should. Right. Um, and I love what you said about community. I talk about community a lot on, um, the podcast because I really believe we are meant as humans to live in community. We are meant to share in community. We are meant to grow in community and. You are right. We've been isolating and isolated, and when we do come together, there is power. So like each individual, right? That collective is where the change happens. So it may start with one person, but as you grow your community and reach out and connect to other people, um. That's really where the change happens and those change happens in sometimes those smallest moments that you don't even think that it's going to happen in.
Shannon Quist:Exactly.
Dr:thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I know like I've told you all, like this is a journey. Like I am learning. Like this is some, an area that I am like, oh, I need to like now I'm now I'm like on fire now I'm like, I need to learn more about this. And so I encourage you to dig in. I'm going to link the TEDx talk in the show notes. Please check it out. And remember, please use your voice today. Thank you for joining us for another episode. Shannon, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Shannon Quist:Thank you so much for having me. This was a great time.
