Equity Starts Here: Why Joy Requires Belonging

What if “joy in schools” isn’t possible without belonging? Dr. Tami Dean and Dr. Max Weinberg unpack how humane, trauma-informed practice—and real partnership with families, paraprofessionals, and communities—creates conditions where every student is seen, safe, and able to learn.

What You’ll Learn

• Why belonging is the prerequisite for joy—not the other way around.
• How testing culture and scripted curricula erode critical thinking and equity.
• Practical ways to center in loco parentis and dignity in daily instruction.
• The overlooked power of paraprofessionals and how to align the whole team.
• Navigating 504/IEP rights with curiosity instead of compliance theater.
• Equity lenses on charters, vouchers, school funding, and neighborhood schools.
• How educator preparation and No Child Left Behind-era schooling still shape today’s classrooms.

Coaching Discovery Call

Transcript

Dr: 0:32

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Equity Hour with me, your host, Dr. Tami, and I am so excited. Today we have Dr. Max Weinberg in the house. Hi Max,

Max Weinberg: 0:45

Hi, good to see you.

Dr: 0:47

Thanks for joining us today, Max. Uh, tell y'all a little bit about Max. He is the founder of Belonging LLC and has spent more than 25 years in the education profession serving as a teacher trained, special educator, coach and administrator. Max's passion for belonging arises from his experiences as a student, parent and professional advocating for marginalized children, ensuring that all children are seen and understood in Schools is personal and professional. Max brings his background as a loss affected youth as a transracial adoptive parent, and as a trauma informed educator and advocate to each situation he encounters. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Thanks

Max Weinberg: 1:28

for having me. This is very cool.

Dr: 1:30

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Okay, Max. So. As my listeners know, and as you probably know, like I start each episode about talking about each of my guests, about their equity journey, and I do that because. This is a journey. To me, it is a marathon, like it is a consistent process of learning or unlearning. And so I feel like in the world there's this idea that you can do one professional development or you do this one thing, or been doing this X amount of. You know, and now all of a sudden you're a quote unquote expert. And in my opinion, like you're never really an expert because there's always something

Max Weinberg: 2:12

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 2:12

So you may be very knowledgeable, you may be very experienced, but it may be in only certain aspects of

Max Weinberg: 2:20

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 2:20

Equity and belonging and inclusion, because there are so much intersectionality and nuance within it. So I would love, can you share a little bit, and I always say like, when I have guest who's been in this work, as long as I have like the Cliff notes version,

Max Weinberg: 2:36

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 2:37

bit about your journey into this work.

Max Weinberg: 2:40

Thank you for, um, well thanks for having me. This is very, very cool. I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and yes, I am on an equity journey and, in the scheme of things. Because I'm a believer in how foundational childhood is. I, even though I feel like, and I wanna say, and I take pride in saying that I got into education for, to work on equity or to, make the world a better place. Especially when it came to historically marginalized people. I'm really a beginner. I'm, I, I'm still there is still so, so, so, so, so much to learn and I think. That shows up in the layers like locally. And then if we just use our, the way we're set up, I live in a suburb, so big city, state, federally, and then just like historically, like 400 years or more of this mess being created more, right? More than 400. But, but, and, and trying to understand. And contextualize every single day. Things were getting worse for so many and better, for so few, um, multiplied by, like I said, every day. And there's so much to learn, all to say. So, I was raised in the suburbs of Chicago, white nuclear family, 1980s. A little queer kid but could mask pretty well. Um, when it came to safety, like learn to keep my mouth shut about things, was like pretty femme but could hide it. Or could hide behind my big sister or, this is a harder thing to talk about'cause I haven't really unpacked it. But being Jewish in a pretty non-Jewish community also gave me like. It both, it both othered me, but also gave me a community to feel safe to hide in.

Dr: 4:38

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 4:38

that was white, that was all steeped in white supremacy too. So, that's all been part of my journey of understanding how I had privilege there by being in a tight knit white supremacist Jewish culture, but also being able to wave a flag of minoration. I lost my sister. I already mentioned my sister. Really, really, really close. Lost my sister and that's where my kind of profound loss came. She was a, or the primary attachment figure in my life, and she kind of like had paved the way, just the person she was like. Punk rock. Um, a kid living with cancer proudly and all of the markers of having childhood cancer really proudly, um, in her own like teenage way fighting the system of hospitalization for kids and like naming equity issues, like just because it was, she was awesome and that was just what she saw. She was treated on the south side of Chicago. So at University of Chicago where like racial. Disparities were on full display.

Dr: 5:38

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 5:38

Um, and it's like those were my, those were in me. And then, went to school and went to a school on the east coast that I struggled to name currently, but I really had a great education. And their motto was, truth, even on unto its innermost parts. And I wanted to be a journalist and that really meant a lot to me, truth even un, to its innermost parts. Then I got to a school that had undergrad that had crazy racial disparities, on display and was steeped in Zionism. And, I kind of wondered what that meant. Truth even un, to its innermost parts. Wanted to be a writer. Wanted to be a journalist. Um. A bunch of us moved to New York City together and working in the publishing industry was not so fun. And lots and lots and lots of interesting sort of dynamics showing up there about socioeconomics and racial dynamics. Who had a voice at the table? Who was running the show? Um, this was, you know, 1999 and landed yes, in Teach for America, which is a whole conversation for another time. I am very thankful for the opportunities that many people in that organization gave me. And they supported me going to a really progressive child centered Master's program at Bank Street School of Education. And I was teaching in the South Bronx and eventually in Harlem, and I just say like, my first day on the job in the South Bronx. I was given a class that was called the lowest, a tiered class, four out of fourth out of four. And I stood in front of them the first day sort of using my nostalgia of what it meant to be a teacher. And I think I tried to lecture them for eight hours, maybe the first week. And they showed me that was never gonna happen. And they were sixth graders. They were adorable and beautiful and hilarious and just like I just. They were magnetic. Like I was just like, you are all amazing and each one of you has the most amazing perspective on the world. And so that was just like, that was it. I was hooked. That was the blast. A blast. My mom is a career educator too, so like I grew up in a house where we not just valued education from like a middle class white perspective, but also like. What it meant to have great teach like teachers who really got you and advocated for you and what effective principals do. Like that was very much just the topic of conversation at the dinner table.

Dr: 8:07

Yeah. Well, you know, I always find it so interesting that they always give the students with the highest need to the least experienced

Max Weinberg: 8:16

That was me.

Dr: 8:16

like.

Max Weinberg: 8:18

And you know the one,

Dr: 8:19

in this story too.

Max Weinberg: 8:21

right? That was me and, um. The school. Just to even go deeper with that, the school was known as like a failing school. It was in the South Bronx, the asthma capital of the world in Hunts Point. And when I interviewed for the job, it was like one of these sit for 15 minutes and the principal says, we have a position. Do you want it? We really need someone. And I was like, I, yes, I absolutely do. Like, you know, I, I, I don't know what I'm doing, but I wanna save the world. It was, was a failing school on a street named, um, fail Street in the South Bronx. Oh. And when he interviewed me, he said, you might know our neighborhood from the HBO. Rea it was reality show, but I don't know if we had that name for it at the time. Probably just beginning with reality shows, docuseries, um, hookers at the point, you might know us from the show called Hookers at the Point, and I was like, I do know that show. And it was, you know, the community was just so, so, so traumatized. It's had a tiny bit of re revitalization.

Dr: 9:20

Uh.

Max Weinberg: 9:21

Um, and there's, there always have been amazing community activists there. Um. But for a principal to tell me that that's how the school is known, just kind of context, put everything into perspective of like, yeah, this is, this is kind of, um, a really strange way to set up, to set up your school and your perception of what the kids bring to the school too. So

Dr: 9:42

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 9:42

my

Dr: 9:43

about the community, right? And like that the, these students come to you. From, right, like what preconceived biases

Max Weinberg: 9:54

right.

Dr: 9:54

having, if that is how you describe your school environment.

Max Weinberg: 10:00

Yeah. And, and you know, I, again, there you will hear throughout this conversation, I'm very aware of it and we can talk about it, but you'll hear me say things like this, like, how simple would it have been to have that street change, that street name changed?

Dr: 10:14

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 10:15

And so when I say, I know, when I say, how simple would that have been, I know that's my, that's all my privilege, right? Like, um, you just go, it's, it's, it's. Um, the, the Karen in me, right? Like, you just go, you fight for it, you ask for it, you demand it, and that street name gets changed in honor of the kids. And that's like a duality that I live with. And I, I tussle with it even at my dining room table with my kids of like, I know I have a, a lot of privilege to walk in there and say stuff, um, and it may or may not get done, get done, but I feel that energy and simultaneously I want everyone. To be able to do that. Like I want those kids and parents to be able to say, you're educating my child at a, on a street called Fail Street. We must change that now. Like it should be Excellence Street. And it was F-A-I-L-E to be fair, it was named after someone. Um, but you know, like, like how simple would it have been to stop talking smack about the kids or the community and to advocate for real change for a local, with a local representative or governing body?

Dr: 11:19

Yeah, but you know, I, I think you bring up a really good point when we talk about. Different access to things or privilege that we may or may, not have. Like even though I'm from a marginalized community, like my education and experiences give me privileges, right? To know. to say or access. Like I, I can tell you a story, like I was advocating for something that was happening in a school district I was working in with the superintendent and he's like, well, the other parents don't know. They don't know you. I said, I know they don't know what I know and that is why I am here

Max Weinberg: 11:54

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr: 11:55

okay.

Max Weinberg: 11:56

Yeah.

Dr: 11:57

And I say all that to say the important part is like, what do you do with that privilege? Like, you know, you have privilege to go to the table.

Max Weinberg: 12:05

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 12:06

who are we inviting to come with us?

Max Weinberg: 12:08

For sure.

Dr: 12:09

To the table, like who are we opening the door for with the areas in which we know we have privilege. For those that don't have that

Max Weinberg: 12:17

Yeah.

Dr: 12:18

have knowledge that they may not yet have, that we can share and collaborate with.

Max Weinberg: 12:24

Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing, and I know we'll talk about it, but like education as a protective fact. Like I think we talk about education as being a protective factor for individuals and we're not great at talking about it. Well, it's actually a protective factor for communities, and communities that thrive are. Get the education they deserve and they're given per, they're given permission or they find ways to allow themselves to connect and activate with one another. And, communities of value education are able to receive that activism too and have healthy co discourse about it. Um, so the protective factor is not just about the individual, but like entire societies are able to thrive when this happens.

Dr: 13:21

Yeah. Well this just makes me think right now like education as a whole to me. I mean, it's been under attack for a minute, but, um, I feel like public education is even more so under attack. So we're starting to remove the idea of community, like, with the, the growth of charter schools, with the conversation around vouchers.

Max Weinberg: 13:46

Yeah.

Dr: 13:47

away, I mean, well even the fact that public schools are funded based on property taxes, right?

Max Weinberg: 13:53

Right, right,

Dr: 13:55

there's just so many layers to the

Max Weinberg: 13:59

right.

Dr: 13:59

of what makes public education inequitable in this country, despite how people wanna think it is equitable.

Max Weinberg: 14:11

Yeah, I think we're not it, it's, this is also one more like we're just getting into, and it, and it is specific to my journey, a fast track program, alternative certification program and in, and it happened to be in New York City. So seeing, seeing those people who are part of just like forming teacher core. Um, rise through the ranks and end up where they are now. It really makes sense. Like, like I'm not, I'm really upset, but not that surprised at, where we are because, you know, um, my, I forget what she was called. My program director was someone who. Um, told me to keep my mouth shut and, um, you know, get back in the classroom. And she was so disappointed in me for raising issues of safety and child wellbeing At this first school I was at on Faile Street,

Dr: 15:02

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 15:03

um, went on to run one of the biggest districts in New York City that oversaw education at, uh, Rikers Island, which was like the scariest thought for me, like here was someone who was telling teachers to be quiet about. Physical abuse or mental distress at the very least at school. And now she's running this and then went on to have an e even bigger position in New York. And now I'm sure is like in regular conversation with really heavy hitters. And you see this like all over the place and it's, you know, we know that every president has had their hand in sort of, every president in our lifetime has had their hand in, um. The destruction of neighborhood public schools. It's really, really interesting and I'm a huge fan of the Obamas, but we're right here in Chicago. The Obama Center is going up and there's been a school in Hyde Park in the neighborhood they lived in, in the community they lived in. That, has is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful building. But it's been really, there's, it's seen huge. Divestment over the past few decades. Now, the Obama Center is going up and it's getting tons of attention, and as, as it always should have. Um, it's also in the shadows of the University of Chicago and the University of Chicago Lab School, which has put in like millions and millions of dollars. And so it's interesting this conversation of like, you know, we are able to find the resources. When we know there is sort of a mutual benefit, like this school's gonna get a lot of resources, it's gonna be beautiful. Hopefully it becomes a school of choice. Everyone in the community wants to go there. Um, but why does it take, a new internationally known museum or center to beef up a school for children? Like, like our, our, it feels so backwards. Like, shouldn't the children be getting the best first? And then we build up from there.

Dr: 17:00

Uh, I mean, yes, I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna agree with you. I mean, I even, just like we were like, oh, it's characterized as a failing school. Like even how that language has. Come about in my lifetime as an educator, like that wasn't a thing when I

Max Weinberg: 17:19

Hmm.

Dr: 17:20

edu, teaching and, and working in education and now that is all that people talk about. And it is sad to me be for so many reasons, most of which it is this testing era that isn't about anything but money.

Max Weinberg: 17:37

Mm.

Dr: 17:38

It really isn't about what's best for kids. It really isn't about learning and excelling and improving our academics. And I know that because when you go and you see what educators and educational leaders are being asked to do, right, we're over assessing. Like you, you can't assess that much and then

Max Weinberg: 17:59

Right.

Dr: 17:59

any growth, right? Or it's. Removing critical thinking, right? Because

Max Weinberg: 18:04

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 18:04

to be easily scored, have to be multiple choice we've

Max Weinberg: 18:07

Right,

Dr: 18:08

like the writing assessment we've taken away and it just, I don't even know where I'm going with this except it just makes me sad. It makes

Max Weinberg: 18:16

right.

Dr: 18:17

for the state of education that we think we need to label schools as failing.

Max Weinberg: 18:23

Yeah. And, and you know that it, that, um, when I describe my students, like I. Yeah, those students, my first year, we did the most fun stuff in the world. Like we got involved in a neighborhood arts arts organization. We helped with greening the Bronx River. I really like, used everything I had learned at summer camp, um, like as a counselor going to camp because I, it was, it was clear that a very traditional approach to teaching and learning, even though I didn't know how to teach, really, it was clear like that wasn't gonna work.

Dr: 18:55

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 18:55

these guys. This was why they were for these kids. This is why they were in place where they were. We wrote to Sandra Cisneros. She came and visited our, she came to visit the school. Give them the resources and the tools and they were going to change the world, right? Like, like these are the minds that we say we want and we need, um, you know, bill Gates's daughter, I just, I keep seeing this over and over and over. It must be something about my algorithm. Bill Gates's daughter just created a shopping app. Um, you, it like helps you shop. And I was like, so all of these thinkers who sent their kids to Montessori schools and said they never gave them devices, who got the best of the best of the best are now creating shopping apps. Like any one of my children in Hunts Point in the Bronx who understood how to see the world in the most complex ways could. You know what, out of that shopping app and change the world in all of their beautiful diversity, and I haven't even really talked explicitly about all of the diversity was there because I think their experiences, the story that was told about them, um, would even be so essentialized. Right? And even like, you know, this is the community that Jonathan Kozel would write about. I think it was Daisy and like I, I love him and I love his heart. But those, the way those books are used, even in teacher education programs, right? It's like, it's like, it's a very essentializing way of looking at schools. And, I haven't, when I get to my story, eventually being a principal of a neighborhood school in Evanston, Illinois, you know, a zip code that is supposed to shoot you, to Stanford, um, it was like in work and leading a very segregated school, sort of, um, 25% black. Most of the students. Low socioeconomic, I don't love that term. I'm not using the right term, but 75% white and wealthier. I knew which kids could think outside of the box and I knew which kids, were going to change the world. And I knew which kids, and, and it, it's not, it's not, you know, only, one group or the other, but I knew which kids were just sort of like, Treading water, water to keep up with the exact path that their parents created for them, or wanted for them, or thought they bought for them by buying into the zip code. It's like, that's, that's not the type of change we say we want. And I, and I, and I, when I say we want, I say, you hear that from any, any, um, politician, we need to build 21st century skills and we need to build it. It's like, do we or are we just looking to fund billionaires trust funds?

Dr: 21:28

Well, yeah. Or do we or are we willing, are we willing to do what it takes to build that? Like I had so much hope we would out of COVID and like realize like

Max Weinberg: 21:38

Right.

Dr: 21:39

were doing was so broken. I firmly believe children are creative. They think outside the box. They notice things we don't notice and how we've shifted education over the last two decades. Really, it, it. Sucks that life out of them,

Max Weinberg: 21:57

right,

Dr: 21:58

we want them to all be the same, and we are seeing the results of now, and then we're like, oh, why are they like this? What do you mean they can't think for themselves? Because we've educated them not to, we've educated them to fit inside this box or only do these, these things.

Max Weinberg: 22:20

right.

Dr: 22:21

society needs all kinds of diversity of thought, of ideas, of ways of being taking away kids access to art and humanities and you know, and then you wonder why people don't understand what's happening with our government right now. Because we weren't teaching social studies, you know, like

Max Weinberg: 22:41

That's right though.

Dr: 22:42

an impact.

Max Weinberg: 22:43

I think about that all the time because some of my work is in teacher coaching and teacher development, and you and I know you, that's your background. Um, you know the teacher, the 21 and 22, well, 25-year-old, 26-year-old teachers are no child left behind students, so right. Not only did they not get trained on effective science and social studies like applied math and science teaching and learning, they themselves did not go to schools where they got that. And so many of them had their arts programs cut even. And I, and I say this even in suburban schools, like I spent time, I said a, a, a school leader in Evanston. And um, to get teachers to teach science and social studies daily was an uphill battle. Um, and even every permission in the world, like take them out to the forest preserve. I'd rather you do that than teach, you know, what Houghton Mifflin says needs to be taught and challenging. And you know, I say this with love for teachers, but also like you, it is hard to teach in a way you've never experienced yourself unless you've had a lot, a lot, a lot of professional development and like exposure.

Dr: 23:54

Yeah. Well, and as a former like teacher educator, I definitely saw that in my time there. Like I could see when they started to come.

Max Weinberg: 24:05

Uh.

Dr: 24:05

To the college classroom. And what we were saying is, you know, best practice. And then what happens when they go then and have to go into a school district where it's not the same,

Max Weinberg: 24:18

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 24:18

There's not an alignment because we're now moving toward script curriculum, you know,

Max Weinberg: 24:23

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 24:23

I know people are on attack, two teacher ed programs saying, right, they're not doing X, Y, or C, which. I firmly disagree with,'cause a lot of those people saying that aren't actually doing real research, but that's a whole nother, whole nother conversation. Right. But I think what it does is we have the blind leaving the blind a little bit. Like, so even if we open it up, have we given them the tools to be able to. Access that, you know, um, we've seen an increase in, non-traditional teachers coming. Some of that is great and wonderful depending on how they were supported in coming to the classroom. Some of them, they're not so supported, right. Depending on your state and your regulations, and they're just kind of like thrown in there

Max Weinberg: 25:16

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 25:16

this idea, and this is my, this is just my personal thought, right? thinks they can be an educator. Going back to kind of what you said, like I, I've, I've been taught like, because I've experienced teachers, I now know how to teach,

Max Weinberg: 25:31

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 25:31

those aren't necessarily, they're not the same

Max Weinberg: 25:35

Right.

Dr: 25:35

is a, it is a profession as a highly specialized profession

Max Weinberg: 25:39

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 25:40

historically doesn't get the, respect because it, let's be honest, right, is been traditionally a female profession and role. I mean, you go back to original teachers, you couldn't be married,

Max Weinberg: 25:53

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 25:54

be seen

Max Weinberg: 25:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr: 25:56

after a certain time because, oh, schedule, right? Like, so all of that influences how pe like, and I think when we, when you talk about like the history, right? All of this influences where we are. In society today, and I think that's really important for people to know, because

Max Weinberg: 26:15

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 26:16

history, you can't understand where we are today

Max Weinberg: 26:17

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 26:18

history might be actually

Max Weinberg: 26:21

Yeah.

Dr: 26:21

it.

Max Weinberg: 26:23

I think the worry is, um, like even when you're talking about like the pioneer school days, like we, it, it, it, even that structure, like who was plucked and, and I'm saying this while also recognizing patriarchy and, you know, anti womanist. Views, but like we also, there's, there was a humanity piece lost, right? Like, so I'm, I'm working on a book right now on school belonging. And so much of what I am pushing is best practice and best lowercase b best, but like, really what I mean is humane practice. Yes. It's trauma informed, yes, it's social emotional, responsive. Yes. I, I hope I do justice with cultural competence, but it is like sit down and listen. Talk, explain how you start went from A to B2C to D, and don't assume that someone else's brain is going to do it the same way.

Dr: 27:18

Mm.

Max Weinberg: 27:18

Like, like sort of like what are our foundational, what do we foundationally believe should be happening when we are in a, you know, I know this is a loaded word, but a transactional education moment. But like if I am hired to do a job, then standing up and pushing iReady math is actually not the job I was hired to do, where even if I look, even if even giving school districts all the benefits without, when I look at my job description, it's not all written about iReady. It's written about in behind, behind it. Ethically in local parentis, like I'm there for the child when their parent cannot be. I commit to keeping the child safe. I, yes, I am absolutely committed to lesson planning or whatever language is used for that. And underneath that is like, I'm there to dignify the children's experience and this can easily, or the child's brain, the child's experience, the child's potential, all of those things. I get into some sticky water, and I did as a principal too, when it comes to teacher social emotional wellbeing. Like what promise for teachers? That's a much, much, much more nuanced conversation. I should, yeah, I think nuanced is a fair way to say it. Conversation for me, from my perspective and when I think about student belonging. Um, but, but that piece of like, how did we get to a place where we stop listening and affirming whoever that child is in what, whatever shape they show up. I do a little bit of work advocating for parents, with students with disabilities, and the amount of, right now, the place we're in. When you go to the table for an IEP meeting or special education? It is, it just, it just feels so tense and my, you know, take on it is so anti disability, it's so ableist, but like fervently anti disability. I, I may have been guilty of this 10 or 15 years ago, like. I'm assuming that parents are coming to rig the system to lie about their children. Um, and that's the feeling you get sometimes. And it's like, wait a minute, let's slow down here. And remember again, we're talking about children.

Dr: 29:30

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 29:30

And, and we do have an ethical development to, to an ethical, you know, commitment to, to support them. And how do, did we get to a place that says whatever Pearson is pushing out and selling on the stock market is more important to deliver than a child's experience like, like that is so, you know, I thought we did away with that when. You know, well, I don't know. I, I, I, I can't say anything now'cause politically clearly we have not done away with that. I was, I was listening to, there was a big Google decision this morning and I was listening to NPR say, Google has been, um, Google has been very worried about how it was going to be treated by the courts today. And I wanted you wanna pause and be like, dear NPRI love you. Google was not worried. Google does not have feelings. The billionaire, millions who have invested in Google may have been worried, but we're gonna be okay. And you know, who's really worried is like, you know, I, we could go on and on about, at this very moment, a newcomer to Chicago, LA, or DC is very, very worried. Like, like, let's really talk about where we should be putting our attention.

Dr: 30:48

Yeah, I mean, that is such a good point, right? Like the, there's been a applying human. Characteristics

Max Weinberg: 30:58

you. Yes.

Dr: 30:59

companies, that is they don't have feelings, they don't like any of those things. Um, do wanna talk about, you talked a little bit about your experience and a little bit about the work you do. So you, founded Belonging Education,

Max Weinberg: 31:14

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 31:15

so please share with us like how you decided to. Build a company and, and what is it you do out here supporting, um, belonging in, in school districts?

Max Weinberg: 31:29

Yeah, so belong. So, you know, I'm, sort of an, an infant business still. Um, belonging, grew out of my dissertation I researched. Effective practices, to support adopted and looked after kids. So I'm a transracial adoptive parent and have supported, um, a lot of kids who are in all types of care situations as a teacher and as a principal. Adopted and looked after kids. Kids in foster care, kids in kinship. I use it, I use, looked after it. It was a term used in the uk, um, or it still is for kids who really were in foster situations or kinship care, but I use it because it's such a nice umbrella term for anyone who's been in temporary care, even if it's informal care. Hey, I need my friend to help, help out with my kids'cause I'm going through it. So I say looked after because a lot of the experiences, um, where it shows up sort of emotionally and lived experiences with being moved around with for kids and having, um, challenges to attachment often are the same whether you're adopted or looked after. Even, even for kids who are adopted a birth. The, the, the. Challenges that they work through are really, really similar. So my dissertation was on strengthening school belonging for adopted and looked after kids, and I didn't wanna let it go. I'm now a school leadership coach and a lot of my work, um, you walk around schools and granted I was a little bit of a hammer looking for a nail. Like you walk around schools, you listen, you start to see like, wait a minute. I hear you talking about this one child who their dad is not changing, they're not fitting in. Um, and, and this is probably every single school. Um, and the more I started hearing that, I was like, well, I want to, I gotta do something with this research because I believe in it. I was fascinated by what came out of it. Um, and so I started belonging. There are certain parts of this belonging framework that grew outta my research that are applicable to all kids or to kind of Gloria Latson billings. Like that's just good teaching.

Dr: 33:44

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 33:44

Um, and then there's some that is really about, um, justice and equity and centering populations who have historically been marginalized.

Dr: 33:54

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 33:55

and right now the schools that I work with directly. Um, that's not true. One school I work with directly, it is about voices who have historically been marginalized.

Dr: 34:04

Okay.

Max Weinberg: 34:05

and one school it is much more holistic. Like that's just good teaching. But, um, with the other school, we are real with the, that's just good teaching. We are really focusing on beefing up paraprofessional,

Dr: 34:16

Oh, mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 34:17

knowledge, ability, skill, um, because which feels like good, meaningful, like justice oriented work. Because the principals, like I give them so much credit, realized that they, really could, had more bandwidth to spare as far as investing with their para professionals and knew that, they were worth investing in. And that, kids deserved to have all of their teachers totally aligned no matter sort of status or where they were coming from.

Dr: 34:46

I, think that is. I think paraprofessionals are an often overlooked group in the educational system, but

Max Weinberg: 34:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr: 34:55

um,

Max Weinberg: 34:56

Angels, I mean, and, and, and, and I think, I think parents we're in a little bit of like, you know, parents are getting all information from all sorts of parent places about schools and education, but I think parents understand better than school leaders how vital paraprofessionals are. Like they really champion and, and I think we've, we've missed that. We have misunderstood that too. Like why is this parent so close? Or why does this parent want to talk so desperately to this paraprofessional? And I think school leaders, I might have been, I'd have to think back, but I was probably guilty of this sometimes like. Like, no, we've gotta get them to talk to the teacher and there is a hierarchy here and that just hurts the kid. And it's really undignifying for the, you know, skilled paraprofessionals. Like, you know, I recently put up something on my social media, like, there are no unskilled workers. Like, let's stop that phrase. Um, we might be really bad at training people. That might be our fault, but like paraprofessionals come in with like a whole lot of knowledge and a passion for supporting and educating kids.

Dr: 36:00

Yeah. Well yeah to me the reason the parent wants to talk to the paraprofessional is because the paraprofessional knows their child I always say I if like something make you comfortable, you have to look back and reflect on yourself, why is that making you uncomfortable? Like,

Max Weinberg: 36:19

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 36:20

that this parent is going this paraprofessional? And it's probably because they know something that you should probably know and whether or not you're ready to admit that to yourself. But it it, it's true. And or how do you foster a collaborative partnership with your paraprofessional to gain some of the knowledge that they have about your students? Because it is very real.

Max Weinberg: 36:41

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 36:42

teachers have 30 students that, you know, they have a large number of students. So if you have this additional layer of support

Max Weinberg: 36:48

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 36:49

space to help you get to know students better

Max Weinberg: 36:52

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 36:53

and maybe a little bit differently of the access they have,

Max Weinberg: 36:57

Right.

Dr: 36:58

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 36:58

Yeah.

Dr: 36:59

Let's use that. Right. Going back to what you said about what is best for kids.

Max Weinberg: 37:05

We also, we also, it's been interesting to watch. Um, I was mostly an elementary person, but having high schoolers of my own and working with some high schoolers, it's really interesting to, to see how we do or don't live out our commitment to career and technical education. Because that, that's also a striking thing of like. How, you know, I know this is mostly an adult podcast, so I think I can say like how shit upon some members of a school community are, while we're also saying we so support career and technical education, so everyone knows who I'm talking about, right? We're talking about the lunch workers, the recess workers, the clerk, the bus driver, the custodial staff, like the un, the ways that, you know, masters and PhD level educators can. Again, I'm sure I was guilty of this, so I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm both pointing fingers and owning it. Um, the way we can kind of prioritize what we think is being the most important work of schools, while ignoring that, like, our kids are picking up on all of these messages and they might be the most kick-ass any one of these positions and we need them, like, we need them to be actually, so, um. We lose, we lose that in the, in the, i I think in all, you know, in all parts of school conversations, um, there are no committees. If I work with, if right now I'm working with about 15 schools in various capacities, there are zero committees that, um, support all of the people in a building. And I would, and I would even go so far as to say, even schools that have social committees tend to leave out recess workers. Clerks, you know, like, like the people who are really making things run for the kids.

Dr: 38:57

Mm-hmm.

Max Weinberg: 39:00

I know I'm jumping, I know I'm jumping around a little bit.

Dr: 39:02

Oh no, you're fine. Look, Max is how my brain works'cause it's, but okay, this is what I always tell people, right? Like, this is how your brain works. I used to talk about this all the time when I worked with, um, preparing pre-service teachers or doing graduate level courses with teachers, I would say, you know, they'd be like, oh, I can't, you know, have my kids do group work or I can't, whatever.'cause they start having these conversations I was like, what do you think you all do? Like you all do it all the time. I said, but it is actually a natural human way. Like someone says something, it makes you think of something, it connects to something else. Eventually it does circle back around. Sometimes you may need a little redirect with the,

Max Weinberg: 39:38

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 39:39

student group and even the adult student group. Uh, but that is how our brains work because that is how we connect and remember things. So yes, it seems like it's all over, but really it's not. It's

Max Weinberg: 39:52

Right.

Dr: 39:53

to the experience of what we're talking about, and I always

Max Weinberg: 39:56

Right.

Dr: 39:56

remember this because. It is my biggest soapbox to stop expecting things from children that we cannot do as an adult.

Max Weinberg: 40:07

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 40:08

Like there are so many of those, some of which is like sitting perfectly still or like not moving right, or not need, like you all do all these things, you know, pay attention to your next professional development

Max Weinberg: 40:18

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 40:19

ever looking at your phone? Um, I bet you do.

Max Weinberg: 40:22

Yeah.

Dr: 40:23

um. Not saying we shouldn't have expectations, but like, let's, let's make them realistic, right? Like a first grader can't sit for 45 minutes still on a rug, or you

Max Weinberg: 40:32

Yeah. I just, just before we got on, I was, working with the teacher for. Let's say a child I care very much about who has an educational plan. And, the plan guarantees that she get time and a half on assignments, um, based on learning profile and that, and we reminded the teacher, and the teacher came back and said, okay, like, I'm willing to do that, which, you know, this should not be up for debate because it's a legal document, 5 0 4 IEP 5 0 4. And the teacher came back and said, I'm willing to do this as long as the child makes the most out of the class time that I give. And I had the same reaction you're talking about, like, you know, I train adults for a living. Like the amount of breaks we have to build in the amount of time we have to allow for just catching up or meandering. Um, and you know, the question of like, are we running a factory or we rerunning a school? Like if, you know, anyone thinks differently. As everyone does, then sitting still for 85 minutes for a topic that's totally new every day and just cramming it in your brain, you're not gonna get what you expect to get. Uh, what you might get is a lot of kids who are just compliant and could just sit and make it look like they're working or, you know, fiddling with the paper. But, um, that's not how deep, long-term meaningful thinking and learning works like you're gonna turn kids off. Um, and, and, and I think the fear when I get that back from teachers is like, so there's a federal law that protects the child about this.

Dr: 42:10

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 42:10

know, like, and this is, this is how you're perceiving of your job. And I'm not blaming the individual teacher, teacher. I'm saying, what in that system is telling that teacher that this is the right way? To center childhood at this, like such a formative time. We're talking about high school, early high school, freshman year at such a formative time of life. Um, you really, kids really, really, really get put through the ringer. Um, with traditional schooling right now.

Dr: 42:41

yeah, yeah. And you know, they need. They need advocates, they need, I talk all the time about, you know, use your voice, right. This goes back to like when you're in space as a privilege, like if you see something like that, you know, people aren't trying to follow five oh fours. They are, you know, they're trying to talk about setting up systems that aren't best for kids because really that is. Why we are in education, right? We're in education to support children.

Max Weinberg: 43:07

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 43:08

And if you're in education and you don't wanna support children, you might need to have some reflection time and, and think about that because that is really what the job is. The job is about supporting and providing the best environment for kids to. Grow and be successful adults out in society. Right? Like, it's like parenting, right? Like your job as a parent is to help build individual, independent

Max Weinberg: 43:30

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 43:31

that are able to go off into the world. Well, you know, in Locus ez, that is the mirroring

Max Weinberg: 43:37

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 43:37

what the educational system is supposed to do. Um. Okay, so we talked, we've talked about so many things, and I love it, and I always, every episode there's like, we could have three other episodes about other things that

Max Weinberg: 43:51

Yeah, and local parentis is definitely the under song. It, it is not getting enough airtime in in current lexicon or current conversations around school. Like we, there are all sorts of reasons for it, I think, but that is like we have to bring teachers. Back to that A, so a social worker recently asked me, what's the code of ethics for educators? And I was like, there are many. And I, you know, I, I kind of went to like union contracts, have them, there are a lot floating around. I was like, but honestly I really think it's in loco parentis. Like, like we don't have the same one as social workers have, which is beautiful and lengthy and rich and guided by all sorts of things. We have a lot of school law, but I was like. Actually it's in local parentis. Kids are spending more, we know this. It's been this way for a long time. Kids spend more time at school. Um, we know this because Holy Smokes school shooting. Like we know this. I mean, you know, so, yeah. Yes, yes. So.

Dr: 44:53

You are like, yes. Yes. Okay. So, um, I like to kind of bring things together, with like a tip to listeners. I know we, we could pull from a lot of different things, but what is like the one thing you want people to walk away is, or doing this journey, what is something you think that they could, could take on and do?

Max Weinberg: 45:16

I want this to sound really positive. I want this to sound like, hopeful. Um, but I do wanna, I'm gonna. Just sort of like frame it a little bit. There's been a conversation for a while now. I think. Um, it was starting before COVID, um, about joy, joy in schools in my kids' district. The phrase. This came up through a corporate model of educating in Chicago called the J Factor. Um, and the J factor was, every lesson plan should have, it was sort of like a hook or something that really stimulates the kids.

Dr: 45:53

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 45:55

in our district, it's become just sort of like shorthand for like, you know, kids come to school and have fun and like with many things, my argument is there's no joy without belonging. Um, and I think that that is something that like, I really would love, really anyone who works with kids traditional school or not to think about. Sometimes we create systems of what we call joy or experiences that we might think is joyful. You know, playing a brain break on a YouTube video, having a whole school assembly where they're playing like prices, right? Types, types of games. And those might, pep rally, those might be joyful for some, those might have like a collective feeling of joy. But if you just stand in a corner and look around, um, it's really not that hard to see. How many people might be sort of, um, either externally or internally withdrawing from experiences like that, which I think then we can extrapolate into like the educational experience. Um, so my, my push and my ask is for educators to like, yes, find the joy, but first, seek out ways to help kids belong in schools through authentic connection. Um, and if I back it up even more, I would say. Adults showing deep, real curiosity, sometimes longer than they feel comfortable doing. So I'm gonna ask why, why, why, why, why? You're telling me this story right now and I'm gonna love every minute of it, even if I'm busy. Um, can back up, can, can, um, be like the driveway into belongingness for a lot of kids. I, I don't think we have to talk about, we, we don't have to diagnose kids with things like avoidant attachment or attachment issues. If we as a system are actually pouring into helping them belong, um, you know, it doubles the burden on kids. So that's sort of the one thing I, I wish and ask for. And I think, going back to how you introed me, which I really appreciated, like that is a through line, both as a kid and. Even as, someone balding with gray hair as I go to school is like, if you had just taken 30 extra seconds, then that kid might not have just withdrawn or

Dr: 48:19

Yeah.

Max Weinberg: 48:19

um, you know, gotten really upset.

Dr: 48:24

I think that's a really powerful, thing to ask, and I think it's really important for people to remember like, we're the adults in the situation and we should be holding the ownership. And to often that ownership gets transferred to the students or the children

Max Weinberg: 48:45

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 48:45

and, and it shouldn't be. So I think. I'm gonna even ask you to take a pause, right? When you feel like you're gonna be pushing some blame onto a child, and is that a bias coming up before you, know, act on it? Because sometimes that is, it may be an untapped recognition of bias, you

Max Weinberg: 49:05

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 49:05

as I've said many times, y'all, bias is a part of human nature.

Max Weinberg: 49:09

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 49:10

what you do with when you start to recognize it that you know, will really make all the difference.

Max Weinberg: 49:16

Mm-hmm.

Dr: 49:17

Um, well thank you Max for joining

Max Weinberg: 49:20

Thank you Dr. Ine.

Dr: 49:22

Listeners, I'll put a link, uh, to Belonging Education in the show notes so you can check it out and check out Max's service. And eventually, when his book comes out, uh, you can

Max Weinberg: 49:32

Looking for July 26th from, from Rutledge?

Dr: 49:35

Okay.

Max Weinberg: 49:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr: 49:36

Less than a year away.

Max Weinberg: 49:38

Yes. Yeah.

Dr: 49:39

is so

Max Weinberg: 49:40

Thank you.

Dr: 49:41

Thank you all for listening again today. Um, go ahead and check out the show notes. Remember to like, share and subscribe and remember to use your voice today.