The Equity Hour

Learning to Relearn: Building Identity-Affirming Classrooms

• Tami Dean • Season 3 • Episode 5

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In this episode of The Equity Hour, Dr. Tami Dean sits down with Kwame Sarfo-Mensah—founder of Identity Talk Consulting and author of Learning to Relearn—to unpack what it really takes to create identity-affirming, culturally responsive classrooms. They explore how “compliance culture” undermines agency, the history behind school policies (from uniforms to hair), and practical ways educators can “clean the lenses,” confront bias, and center joy, belonging, and critical thinking.

What you’ll learn

  • Why “compliance” often replaces true learning—and how to reverse it
  • How history informs present-day school policies (uniforms, hair, discipline)
  • Practical steps to build identity-affirming, anti-bias, anti-racist practice
  • Strategies for nurturing student agency, joy, and criticality
  • Ways teachers can honor their professional identity—even within constraints

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Dr:

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Equity Hour with me, your host, Dr. Tami. I am so excited to bring another amazing equity educator to your ears today and our newest episode. Today we have with us Kwame Sarfo Mensa. Hello, Kwame. Welcome.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Hi Dr. Tami. How you doing?

Dr:

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Lemme tell y'all a little bit about Kwame. Kwame is the founder of Identity Talk Consulting, a global educational consulting firm that specializes in developing K 12 educators into identity affirming educators. Rooted in the core values of equity, empowerment, and authenticity. Identity Talk Consulting provides a range of professional learning experiences, including keynote speaking, virtual and in-person trainings, leadership consulting and e-course to help educators sharpen their cultural responsiveness and anti-bias, anti-racist practices. Um, his latest book, Learning to Relearn, supporting Identity in a culturally affirming Classroom has received multiple awards and we are gonna talk more about that today and I'm super excited about that. So welcome to the show.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Thank you.

Dr:

Look, that was a bio I'm telling you. I love it. I love it. Okay, we're gonna dive right in. Um, as you know, Kwame, I always start with each of my guests really talking about how they got into the work of equity, a little bit about their equity journey because to me it is really important for people to understand that this work isn't a one and done. It's not like a, I've done a workshop, I've read a book, you know, I've listened to a podcast episode like this. Right. Not at all. Exactly. I've been doing this for over 25 years. I feel like I'm still always learning something. There are areas in which I have more knowledge than others. And so I always think it's really important for people to know you can start where you are and then continue to go, you know, from there. And there's always so to something to learn, um, along the way. And so tell us a little bit about your story and to getting into this work.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah. So, um, I've been in education for 18 years. Started my career as a middle school math teacher Philadelphia. And then I eventually moved to Boston to continue my career there. So that's actually how I got into education to begin with. while I was in the classroom, I just noticed a lot of inequities. Like I was very much aware of, the racism. I, I saw the microaggressions that I experienced and other students experience, and even some of my colleagues of color experience from others who are, uh, non melanated. I, I saw that. even experienced it myself. So those were things that I was very familiar with. But then you get into these inequities and you realize that you have students who come into classrooms like they have to be a totally different person than

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

authentically are. And while I didn't have the language that I have now to articulate what was going on, I knew that was a root cause for a lot of the issues that were taking place. So when I transitioned abroad with my family 2019, that's when I was, that's when I say I started my journey because initially I was going to get a job with the international school and it was a struggle to get my foot in the door. So rather than force myself into that space, I decided, all right, how can I stay connected to this thing I love called education?

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And I started a podcast, just like your podcast.

Dr:

Yes. Love a good podcast.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

yeah, I figure I'm abroad. I'm gonna be able to have access to other educators who are across the globe. And I had just started really getting into social media and following different teachers and you had these teachers who were showing off all the cool things they were doing in their classroom and giving tips and things like that. And I said, oh, that's dope. Like, let me interview some of these people. So December, 2019, I started my podcast at Identity Talk Educators Live. And since then I've been able to interview well over 200 different educators across different nationalities, different uh, linguistic backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds. And I think as I started to interview different people, I was hearing these identity stories that they came in with, I saw a common thread, which was the fact that they didn't have the space within their respective school environments to have conversations. So my podcast became the space where they were able to be a bit more vulnerable. They're able to be a bit more transparent and honest about who they were, who people perceived them to be

Dr:

Mm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

spaces. how did they navigate life with all this going on, how did it make sense of, of their lives and, and how does that inform their worldview? So I believe a lot of the conversations I had at the pod in the, on the podcast really served as the catalyst for me writing my book, Learning to Relearn, which I know we're gonna talk about, uh, because a lot of the things I share in the book stem from the learnings that I receive from my guests over the past five and a half plus years. so that's really where my journey started.

Dr:

Yeah. Oh, that's so powerful. Right. And as you were talking, I was like, absolutely. Like the perception of who you are when you're in a professional space as a melanated person versus the reality of who you are and how you navigate those tensions. And then that's also happening with students like who they need to be, uh, need to be. I say that in air quotes y'all, like, um, and who they really are, and what is allowed or accepted. And, you know, there are so many nuances to that, that space of identity, right?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah.

Dr:

there's just so, so many places we could go. We could have just an episode about that, like, right? For sure. For sure. Oh my gosh. Well thank you so much for sharing that story. I think that's really powerful. And I think I, I hear that a lot, right? People will be like, I was talking to other people and it made me think about X, Y, or Z, or, I'd never thought about that that way. And now I'm thinking about it this way. And that's one of the things that I hope people get from just this podcast. I think that's one of the things that's really important within your book is to, you know, really understand. Like sometimes we don't know what we don't know until we know it,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

That's right.

Dr:

you know? And I know there's always a lot of tension this may, around bias, right? Because some of these expectations, are rooted in systemic inequities and you know, racism to be really, you know, hitting a button on the nose. And you may or may not realize that because whether you are a melanated or non melanated person, because that's the society in which you grew up in. And so it just becomes what it is until you realize that's not what it should be. And so that's where bias comes in, and that's one of the things I always like to talk about. I'm like, everybody has bias. All of us. We're a human being. We have bias, period, right? That, that's just the nature of humanity. The important thing is, do you recognize it? Once you recognize it, what do you do with it? How do you handle it? How do you act on it? How do you not act on it? Like there are so many things around recognizing systems, um, biased systems and your own personal bias, just having been in the world because the world itself has bias.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Of course.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah, for sure. And I think wasn't until I removed myself from that classroom teacher setting I realized how deeply entrenched we are in an education system that perpetuates these biases that we're speaking of,

Dr:

Yes,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

It took me being out the classroom to have those reflections. Because one thing that you and I know is that when we're in the trenches and doing the work, we don't have time to have these drawn out reflections. We're calling parents, we're grading papers, we are backwards designing, we are, uh,

Dr:

looking at data.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

redesign, looking at data, doing assessments. There is so much that that's entailed when we talk about the work of teachers. So where's the time to do this deep reflection and come to this epiphany? For me, uh, when I was writing Learn to Relearn, I was not in the classroom. I had lots of time think back to when I was in the classroom, when I did engage in certain microaggressions, when I did have certain biases about different groups of people who came from backgrounds that I did not share personally.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

That was really what it was for me. And then I also thought about my own journey, uh, being a first generation Ghanaian American people, assuming that because my parents came from Africa, they weren't educated. me starting my first four grades with an IEP and being in a self-contained special education classroom, people thought because I had that label, that wasn't smart. So I had to fight through that and overcome that.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

of course, uh, my family moved to Ghana, well, I moved to Ghana with my father and my youngest sister after my sixth grade year,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

even though this is my country, right? I

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you see right there, I, I start to go into school. And even though I look like them phenotypically, eating all the same cultural foods and everything. The minute I open my voice, oh, you're different. So now the othering happens in a space that supposed to feel like home.

Dr:

Wow.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

there is some isolation there. Uh, there is some, oh, not the division, but they definitely engage in, in that isolation where, all right, you're in this space. We are here. And

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

because I do come with a certain amount of socioeconomic privilege

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

of the fact that I have an American passport, because of the fact that. I came from a household where both my parents were college educated,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

So like I understand that I'm able to access certain spaces that my classmates weren't able to access. Those were things that I was very much aware of, it made me a bit self-conscious because I didn't wanna be given preferential treatment because of that.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

just wanna be a part of the, a part of the crew. I just wanted to be just one of, just, just like everybody else, but realize that you're not,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

pretend as if you are. so I think for teachers, in order for us to really understand how education systems work and how we play a role in keeping these systems functioning the way they've always done, w. Is that we have to do our research, we have to ask the basic questions, right? Um, and it, it always comes down to the why. The why. Like, why

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

that they, we believe where these ideas come from in our context. Who fed these ideas to us at an early age? Was it our parents? Uh, was it members within our neighborhood? Was it friends, family members? Was it something that we watched on TV or listened to on a radio song that we to sing all the time? Like, we get these messages from so many different points it doesn't, and it is not until you sit down and really think back to realize that, oh, I see why this is problematic now. I didn't, I didn't know that before, but I do know now, and I still have these moments, even now as an adult, I still have moments where it's like, oh, like yo, they used to be my song. They used to be singing all the time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh yeah, I probably should have been singing that. Oh, we

Dr:

Well.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

this cartoon or this TV show. Oh, okay. shouldn't have been watching that neither. So I think the more you start to clean those lenses,

Dr:

Mm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

the more you realize that, alright, there are certain things that we need to interrogate

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

our world.

Dr:

Yeah. I love that idea of clean, the, clean the lenses. There was a period of time where I was a professor working with, uh, pre-service teachers and, we read some of Lisa Del's work and her book, and we read, Peggy McIntosh is Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. And,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr:

you know, and that's exactly like what some of these future teachers said. They were like, it was like, they're like, I feel like my rose colored glasses have been taken off and I have put on a new set of eyes. And they would come back and just start noticing things that they had not noticed before. Just like what you said. And I think that that speaks to. The human experience, right? Because once we learn something, we start to notice it. It even things like if you think outside of this conversation, it's just like you get a new car, you're interested in a car or something, and now all of a sudden you see this car everywhere because you now are thinking about it, right? Those cars were always there. Right. Always. You just didn't necessarily notice them.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Mm-hmm.

Dr:

I think that's one of the important things for me. Like, and I think that's one of the important things about this work and that what you're talking about is noticing and being able to start to name, noticing and naming and then what do I do now? Like what is the, the shifts I am, I'm curious, um,'cause you mentioned, you started to think of, you know, some examples when you got outside of the classroom that you might not have noticed when you were in the classroom. What are some, what are a couple things that you could share with people that you notice once you kind of were able to step back?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah. Um, I, I think for one, one example that comes to mind immediately is like, when you think about just students transitioning through the hallways,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

why do to be in a line. I grew up, I mean, I grew up having to be in line to go from one place to another, and I just thought, that's what you're supposed to do. I never questioned it because I saw every teacher of mine organize their class that way when they're transitioning from one area to the next. But then when I became a teacher, I realized, yo, this doesn't make much sense. Why can't I just walk all over? I mean, yes, in some cases you wanna create space for those who are oncoming. I get that part, but does have to be like a, a perfect line if there's one student that if this is the line and one student is like this, I get penalized for that? Should a student get penalized for that?

Dr:

Right.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

still for the oncoming students to go through without any issues like that? That's what I'm saying, like it's stuff like that. Then, um, also with regard to like uniform policy, which is a bit controversial.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

One instance, I understand why we do wear uniform, but I also believe too that a lot of it is kind of stems from, I think about even like the boarding school era with indigenous schools, how people, how indigenous people, indigenous children were from their reservations

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

they were placed in these schools where their is tripped, their traditional regalia and their, and their, um, attire

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

allowed to wear and

Dr:

They cut their hair.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

going on their hair as well. So we think about even with a. Black and brown folks, when you think about Crown

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

like why should I get penalized for having locks in my hair?

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

know, why can't A have an Afro? You

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

like, why is that problematic? How does that have any impact on their ability to perform academically? Why does that, why is that a distraction for adults in those settings? a lot of these things that we see in our classrooms, in our school communities, they all go back to history

Dr:

Oh

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

and all go back to history. And that's the reason why I felt like it was important for me to write this book. Because around the time when I was reading anti-racist books, it was always written in like generalities. There are some good books out there, but you didn't really have a book that really. Dug deep into the historical origins of the policies that we experienced in that K 12 systems.

Dr:

yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I also didn't have a book that really touched on that manifested in each of the main historically marginalized communities. So for example, I made the example of the indigenous and native communities, how, how are they impacted by the K 12 system? And we talk about Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. How are the youth within those communities impacted by the K 12 system and Latinx students, Hispanic students, how are they impacted by that? Right?

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And so on and so forth. And then you can throw in your L-G-B-T-Q-I-A communities. um, your Neurodiverse communities, students who have disabilities, like they all, they all stem from history.

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And in order to understand why the system's the way it is, you have to understand the history. So that was why felt like it was important for me to do that research. And it's the reason why half of the book is about that. And then the second half is all practical. Because in order for you to understand how to approach different communities, you gotta know the history of that community

Dr:

Yes, yes, yes. And you know, that just speaks to, again, like the importance of this work. Like it takes time and intentionality. You can't just, um, you know, hop in and be like, oh, I wanna do this. Lemme just do an identity map with my kids. So you do an identity map and then, and then you do. And that's it. Like, that's where it goes. Like, what are, what are you doing with that information? Why are you asking them? I mean, that's first of all, a very vulnerable, exercise or can be for certain students, right? Um. How much of, what do they wanna share with you? But you're doing this identity map for what? So then you go back to treating them all the same? Um, gosh, the, I'm a little all over the place right now, but I keep like thinking about the walking in the line because when I walked in a school, we had to walk in a line and we had to walk. Our students were supposed to have their hands behind their back as they were walking. Like, so they had,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

What's going on?

Dr:

they had to. Mm-hmm. So they weren't touching any, so they weren't touching anybody. But I want everyone to think about that. Like, and I was a baby teacher when this happened, and I just think about that. Like, we are asking students to walk in a line with their hands behind the back. What visual does that give you? What is that emulating? Within a school, which should be a safe space. But that doesn't feel very safe to me,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

It doesn't feel safe at all. It, it doesn't,

Dr:

No, and you were talking about uniforms and the same school that I worked in,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah.

Dr:

didn't have uniforms when I first started. And then because again, it be uniforms became as an exercise of control. Exactly. Like what you were talking about. You know, the student, oh, we don't wanna have any problems because of this. Like the students were expressing their individuality with their clothes. That's what kids do. This was a middle school too like they're finding themselves. That's what we do as people. There are, there's. Dress, food, all of these things, right? Hair, all of these things are a part of our individualized expression of ourself, but also connected back to, you know, cultural roots a lot of the times too, right?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Sure.

Dr:

So we wanna strip all of that. We stripped all of that. They all had to wear uniforms. We're like, oh, it'll be easier. It'll be easier, it'll be less things for, but I'll tell you what I don't know about your students and uniforms. But mine kept trying to find ways to still individualize their uniform

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Mm-hmm.

Dr:

and how they, as much as possible within trying to stay in the rules.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah. You know what it is kind of like, uh, French Prince of Bel Air when will just wore his blazer inside out.

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

wearing the uniform and he still looks pretty good. It's still the uniform. He just wore it inside out because he needed to express his individuality.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

It wasn't defiance, it didn't hurt anybody. Everybody went about their business. But if you were to do that in, in real life, of course this was a sitcom. But if

Dr:

Right.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

that in real life, the amount of vitriol certain administrators will have against that student. And I, I've

Dr:

Oh,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

my own too.

Dr:

I've seen it too. Like I could just, it's like I'm going back in time and like I, you know, um, it's like the body keeps score. I dunno if you, but I feel like it's, like it's going back in time because that was really a hard time for me because I didn't care. Like, I don't, I really didn't care. Like y'all, why are you in these children's face?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Mm-hmm.

Dr:

You're an adult. First of all, they're a child and you're in their face because they're what they want. One thing, one part of their shirt, untucked, and one part is tucked in because of whatever reason. Right?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah.

Dr:

Is that what we're here for? We're here to police tucking in shirts, or we're here to educate and help students learn.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And as you mentioned that it's something that talked about in the intro of. book is Education versus school and conversation, right?

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And I'm thinking about even my own K 12 schooling and the fact that you didn't have to be a strong academic student in order to get your diploma.

Dr:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

If you are just a compliance student, if you simply listen to what your teacher told you to do, you'll graduate without a problem. At the minimum, you'll graduate.

Dr:

Yep.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

You may not have the highest GPA, but you'll get a diploma. And it was the same thing with college. Think about when we went to college. Think about that one course we took that was kicking our behind. And, you know, midterms, what's coming up? You looking at your, your current grade in the class, and you have to make a decision, should I bail out now and just take the course in the summer? Or should I just take this midterm to see how I perform? And you hope that you could do that before the deadline to drop the class.

Dr:

Mm-hmm. Right. Yes. Very real. Very real.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you're learning how to navigate.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

here's another thing too. Office hours. Let's talk about office hours. You struggling in a class, but you show up every day. You raise your hand, you're clearly engaged with what's going on. You go to professor's office hours week. Hey, oh, professor, I got this question on this thing. Can you, can you help me out with this? help you out. They see that you have the effort. Finals come. You still may be struggling a little bit. Maybe a lot of kids are struggling. What does a professor do? Curve the grade.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Now you've passed, but why did you pass? You didn't pass because you, you, um, not for lack of a better term, mastered the content.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

You passed the class because you knew how to navigate the system. You knew that by going to office hours, you were showing investment in this professor's class, given the professor the idea that you truly care. So it's not even so much about the content, sometimes it's about the effort. Of what you're doing. I, I'll tell you this, like I was a math major in college. My major GPA was barely over a 2.3, and I was a math major, but I graduated cum laude because I was getting like 3.5, 3.6 on my other classes that were outside of my major. And for some of those classes, I wasn't the strongest student. But I went to class every day.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I didn't miss classes. made sure to get there on time. But this is what it is though. It's it's compliance. It's all about compliance. It's all about how you navigate, know how to navigate the system.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

That's a different type of knowledge.

Dr:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I, oh, compliance. I, I think about that a lot in our current education system because we tend, and I say we only because I've been a part of the system, right?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Mm-hmm.

Dr:

And, and educators ask students to comply and do things that they don't necessarily do as adults. They are unable to execute them as adults. Because there are unreasonable expectations on a person, and I don't know if there's enough thinking about this compliance, you know, option. Like, I'm gonna use the example, like if you're doing, and I've done, and I know you have two right? Professional development sessions, or you know, with educators, you're laughing because like, you know where I'm going with

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you

Dr:

this.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Keep

Dr:

I know,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

where

Dr:

I know,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

too.

Dr:

And you're doing that and they're, they're doing 50 million, 11 other things. They're talking, they're on their phone. They're like, this, this, you know, you're right. You're, you, you ask them to have a small little group discussion. Right. Because it, and they go and talk about something else. Okay. So I'm not saying all that to knock teachers. What I'm saying is y'all don't even do what you're asking students to do because that's not human nature. Like you're around people. Humans are social. And then we ask kids to come into a school space where they're not allowed to talk like what? You know? So I always would be like, that's how, that's how conversation works you guys. If you have somebody to have a conversation in a small group, and this is the question you've asked them, they will talk about part of that. But part about our brain is it connects to other things and then it makes'em think of something else. And then you talk about that, and then eventually it circles back to how that connects to the topic. But you happen to walk by when they're off, quote unquote off topic, and you're like, oh, I can't let my students do group work anymore. Right. Or they're looking at their phone, like adults look at their phone more. Same amount as kids do at this point. Like everybody's looking at their phone. So what I'm, where I'm going with this is right, like we, we participate in a different way than what our expectations are because of this compliance thing.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

We're straight. Hypocrites.

Dr:

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because, you know, or like sit still, like, I always laugh because like, my students in class would be like this, right? And then they would ask the little kids to like, you need to sit still on the rug. I mean, I have an, my own child when he was in kindergarten, he, he came up, I was actually picking him up that day. He was so excited to tell me about his day and his teacher's like, I need to tell you something. And I had, I had to like tell her not to ever interrupt him when he's excited about his day to tell me something bad. But what she had to tell me bad was he didn't, he didn't sit still for 45 minutes while they were on the rug doing something. I said, wait a minute, you're telling me that my, um, 6-year-old didn't sit still for 45 minutes? And you're surprised about that,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I mean, he's six.

Dr:

that part.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Is it developmentally appropriate a 6-year-old to be able to sit still for X amount of minutes?

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I got a 7-year-old who can't always sit still. There's nothing wrong with him. He's seven.

Dr:

Yes. And I think when we're talking about compliance, and this is what I've seen over like the, you know, 25 plus years I've been in education, what the expectations were when I started and where they are now, and the pushback that's happened in grade level expectations that is not developmentally appropriate for kids. So we are now setting up them up to fail, if you will, right? Because we're asking'em to do things that they're not even developmentally appropriate. We're asking'em to sit still for 45 minutes, which that teacher is asking that because that is part of a system that is asking her to do that. So here's the part, like what do we do about that then you have your book, you're gonna be talking, I know we talk about these things, right? But like at some point, the individual educators, and whether you're a teacher, whether you're an administrator, whether you're a district law, like we have to decide that this isn't working and we need to do something different.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah, and I think there are a lot of teachers who recognize that it isn't working. I don't

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

the

Dr:

Yep.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

main issue.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

The problem is. Those teachers are fighting against forces which they cannot fight against alone,

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

and as a result, that's what leads to the lack of teacher retention, particularly for teachers of color, right? That's what leads to teacher morale being down. And quite frankly, is why a hard time for this. This is why schools have a hard time recruiting teachers into their buildings because those teachers anticipate the type of mistreatment that they'll receive.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

anticipating these issues that we're talking about right now.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

So there's a lot of things that are happening. I, I think we have to redefine what success looks like. What does it mean for a school to be successful? I think people have their own definition what success is for some, it's how things look operationally.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Can you do a fire drill? Are students walking in line? Are we posting things on the bulletin boards? And that's, that's another conversation.'cause I've seen some problematic things with regard to that.

Dr:

Oh yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

some people look at it from that way, from that standpoint. there are some who say, well, for me is making sure that our school is a learning environment that is joyful,

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

a learning environment that allows for students to be themselves and to express themselves in a way that allows'em to build their own agency and criticality around the issues that are happening in our world.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

See, when you teach a child to be compliant. That is the biggest disservice you are doing for that child because they never get the opportunity to learn how to think for themselves.

Dr:

Yes,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And we're in a space where we need more students to question what's happening around them.

Dr:

yes,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Question.

Dr:

yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Wrap your head, Hmm, this doesn't look right. Well, why does it not look right to you? Let's go deeper. Like, we need more of that. As opposed to, no, you can't say this. No, don't do that. Uh, no, this is how we do it.'cause I said so like we, we need less of that. We need less of that.

Dr:

Y Yes, yes, absolutely. And I am concerned that we get, we're getting further and further away, or let me say it this way, not actually in overall, especially with certain populations of students getting further and further away from criticality and critical thinking

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Mm-hmm.

Dr:

too. Learn and explore history. History is so important. The humanities are so important, and if the current environment isn't an example of that right now, right? When you don't understand historical happenings and it's repeating itself in front of you and you can't even see it because you've never had the opportunity to engage critically with learning these pieces like we are pushing the curiosity out of kids. I have been in, in more schools where teachers are frustrated because. They're bringing in more of a scripted curriculum. Like they're taking the professionalism out of the profession, number one. So that's going back to what you're saying, that it's hard to recruit people and keep people to stay when they don't feel like they're valued. And then you have students who are quite frankly, bored because if you're doing the same thing every day, like filling in a blank, like underline that. Like I, I always, I always to say this to my pre-service teachers, if you are bored, your students are definitely bored

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Oh yeah,

Dr:

And then that's when the behaviors happen. But when you are having engaging, thoughtful, critical thinking, exploring, experimenting, why do you think students love like to go do science class and like dig in and do stuff, right? Because they get to use their brain like, and that's what humans are meant to do. And we're like, no, no, we don't have time for that. We don't have time to explore this. Or we need to just memorize these things and regurgitate them and. I'm talking in such broad generalities right now, and this isn't everywhere, but when we see the push towards that, when we see the push towards, you can only read certain things and it excludes, coming back to the identity piece, excludes certain identities, and those identities still exist inside of our educational spaces, and they're already low in representation in the first place. I don't know, I, I feel like we're on a train that's running towards the edge of a cliff with the tracks run off and there's no more tracks and.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Yeah, I, I agree with that part. I definitely do. Um, and I think it's tough because you mentioned how we do our scripted curriculums, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think as a, as a, teacher supervisor, as someone who has dealt with pre-service teachers, I think you're someone that's first coming into the space, a script, a scripted curriculum could be your best friend until you develop your own identity and you start to learn how to supplement. But before you can get to that point, you gotta have the content knowledge, number one, you have to have an understanding of. Your curricular framework, whether you're doing Common Core, whether you a science teacher, you're doing next generation standards, whatever your content area is, you gotta know that,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you know? But I do, I do feel that there are a number of teachers who don't believe that those fill in the blank, those low level kind of fill in the blank type of exercises are beneficial to students, but they do it because they're within a system. Once again, that forces them to, that forces them to not be able to pace the way they want to.

Dr:

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

an inclusion class, if I have students with 5 0 4 plans, students have IEPs, if I have students who are learning English. As a second language in this one classroom, you can't expect me to finish a unit within the three days that you say it should be done. I'm gonna need at least two more days to get through this unit.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

But here's the flip side of that. the beginning of the school year, you are being asked to submit a student learning goal, a professional practice goal. It doesn't matter what state you're in,

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

and student learning goal, it may be something to the effect of, I expect, um, a 20% increase in my student scores from the year before based off of these assessments based off of this data, blah, blah, blah. You submit that to your principal,

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

now you're being held accountable for that. So what does that mean? Oh, do wanna do this exploratory type of lesson, but I gotta get through all these different UI have to get through all these different objectives for this unit before this interim assessment, which is gonna count towards my goal that I submitted to the principal.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

This is what I, I've been through this myself where I was, I was doing things that I knew were not beneficial to students, but at the same time, I gotta keep a job.

Dr:

That is real.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

You know what I mean? Like,

Dr:

Yes,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I

Dr:

absolutely.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I got a baby boy at this time. I gotta do what I can to keep this job. So if I have to do this, I'm gonna do it, I am gonna try to sprinkle in some of the things that I want to do. I will sprinkle it in.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Or better yet, do those things after we've gone through all the major tests because we all know that the state test is a Super Bowl, and once it's done, you could do whatever you want pretty much for the

Dr:

Look,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

month and a half.

Dr:

the, the, the high pressure Super Bowl that we place on, on everybody, it's uh, like

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I mean,

Dr:

the, the stress of a snapshot in one day. You know, the difference is teachers don't get paid millions of dollars while the people in the Super Bowl do.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

they, they don't, unfortunately,

Dr:

No they don't. It's a little flipped. It's a little backwards. But no, I absolutely agree with you. I do think, and I hear and talk to teachers all the time that are very frustrated, but again, they need their job. They actually want and love being a teacher. And so I think that comes back to what we're saying, like, right, how do we take what we know that isn't working or isn't best for kids, but also best, right for the educators in the space either. How do we do that? What are your thoughts? Like how,'cause you're right, there are systems in place that an individual teacher can't necessarily change'cause they only have control of what they have control over. Um, but this collective, I don't know, how do we come together? Do you have thoughts on that?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I, I do, I definitely have some thoughts, and this is something that I've talked about on other podcasts too, and it is actually one of the main reasons why I started my consultancy. Identity Talk Consulting. tagline for Identity Talk is Stay true to the teacher in you,

Dr:

Mm

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

to the teacher and you. What does that mean? It means, regardless of what's happening around you. You gotta stay true to your moral compass, true to your guiding principles, whatever they may be, however you define them for yourself as an educator, and do what's best for students. And sometimes what's best for students may, may be you not being in a classroom with them. Let's, let's, let's talk about that.

Dr:

mm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

You know, I know it sounds ironic because, I mean, I'm talking to somebody who, who's working with pre-service teachers and you're encouraging'em to be in the classroom and do all this incredible work. But I think what's most important is we have to get teachers into this pipeline who understand that there are systemic challenges that they will encounter

Dr:

Oh yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

understand that. If they go right instead of left, even though going right was the best decision to make for their students, they're going to suffer some consequences that are totally unjust. If you go, if you are aware that this is going to happen and you still wanna be a teacher, go for it. But I think what I've come to realize is be able to do so much more when you're outside of that space because the reality is that system that we are in was never designed black and brown children to thrive. It was never designed for that to happen.

Dr:

Right.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

once you come to that realization, that easily informs how you navigate Said system. Or whether or not you remove yourself from the system and do something that's totally not totally different, but you do more of what you wanna do. There's a reason why

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

have micro schools. There's a reason why we have home schools,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

and there are a lot more of those options now post pandemic.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

There's a reason why educators become consultants or coaches

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

because there's a level of autonomy you're able to have that you're not able to get when you're within that systemic space.

Dr:

So,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

for those who are entering this teacher pipeline, they need to come with that understanding, number one. But we have to be able to be real with them about that and not sugarcoat anything. And we gotta equip them with tools like we have to get them to see that when they go into this space. They're not, they are commodities, not employees. You're a commodity.

Dr:

Hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

You see what I mean? Like

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you to approach it in that way. And I know this is kind of veering off to a different conversation, but it's still relevant.

Dr:

Oh, totally.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Like think about this, Dr. Tami. The stuff that we create as teachers, the lesson plans, the projects, the demos, the worksheets, the amount of time we spend supplementing, we do all that for free. Just to submit a lesson plan for the week, just to submit a unit plan.

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

All this intellectual property is monetizable. When you decide be a good Samaritan, when you decide that you're gonna be someone that's invested in your school community, you know what? I love my colleagues so much. I wanna do this, this PD session facilitate I believe it's gonna make us better as a team.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

be true, you know what? There are people out there that are doing the same thing you doing and they getting paid money doing it.

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

But I I, I, I'm not going to go too deep into that, but all that to say, we we're not getting paid enough already and we're not gonna be put in a position where we gonna be work, we gonna be working like slaves

Dr:

Mm

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

and then still be expected to come back every year and produce at the same high level to the point where it is at the expense of our social emotional welfare.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

And when we are in that position, students end up suffering. That's the byproduct of that.

Dr:

Oh, absolutely.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

because we are overexerting ourselves we're producing and producing and producing. Only to either find ourselves further in debt because if we're gonna be honest, they tell you, oh man, I can't believe I'm going down this path, but I'm going there. They tell you, in order to move up the step ladder or the pay scale in your district, you have to do more post-secondary classes.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

have to get an additional cert, which does require you to go back to school more times than not

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

in order to get the additional cert, which means you have to pay money. For a licensure test, at least one licensure test, sometimes more than one, depending on what you getting the license for. And then you don't always get grant money for that. You may get reimbursement if you're lucky, but the reimbursement caps at a place where you are not gonna be able to cover all those expenses that you've incurred. But this is like a, A perpetual cycle. It's a perpetual cycle. we find ourselves in this space where we're producing overproducing,

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

we're not getting the wages that we should get for that, and then we're still find ourselves in debt. 15, 20, 25 years down the line. We still paying

Dr:

We ain't gonna talk about my student loan debt, but

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I'm a, I'm a, I'm gonna shut up

Dr:

No, don't shut up. But here's, here's look.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

even that, Dr. Tami, the way they did me, man, I did my five years, like they tell you to do it. Teaching a Title one school for five years in a row. did that. here's how they got me. They got me, because the first four years I taught was in Pennsylvania.'cause remember I started in Philadelphia. My license was in elementary education, K to six. So I was a sixth grade teacher my first four years in Pennsylvania, but it was within middle schools. So then I'm thinking, all right, I'm gonna go to Boston. I get my Massachusetts license, which is in middle school mathematics, K to eight. I do my first year, which is my fifth year overall. Right.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I submit my paperwork, I get my, uh, references from my past principals, from all the schools I've taught in, to my loan provider. They rejected me. And the reason why is because they go by what the state says you are. So the state recognizing me as a elementary educator, k to six, that I'm an elementary educator. When I submitted my application, I put in secondary school because was teaching in secondary school. grade is middle school.

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

is secondary. But because in Pennsylvania, I'm classified as an elementary school teacher based on my initial

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Pennsylvania. I didn't get credit for those first four years. So as a result, I had to teach four more years in order to get my five. It was under that middle school, uh, mathematics license, which clearly says middle school, which is secondary. So because the license said that for Massachusetts, I finally got the credit and then it forgave my loans after ninth year overall in the classroom. But

Dr:

look,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

the bs. That'd be happening

Dr:

look. There's so much like don't get me started on PSLF and all that stuff and like the nightmare that is right now. But I, I wanna, I'm gonna say you were talking and I was thinking about this and I had never thought about it this way. Like when we were talking about the steps and like getting more education, I totally did that. I went back and got my master's to move up, you know, increase my salary. But the one thing that I didn't ever think about, and I just realized that right now, right? And I don't know how many people do. You don't ever look at the money you're investing in the education to get higher on the step of the salary scale. And does it actually pay off? So yes, you're increasing your salary, but you've outputted this money. Are you actually ahead or are you behind? I don't know, right? Because I, I personally at that time did not look into that and I don't know how many people do.'cause you're like, oh yeah, I need to make more money, so I'm gonna go do this. And you don't necessarily do all the math, you know,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

that,

Dr:

you just,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

too.

Dr:

you don't, you.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

check this, but check this out though. So yes, that part is true and you've gone ahead and gotten. Dual dual or triple certified, you've taken a class you're supposed to take. You are at the very top the pay scale. You cannot get any more money from this district. You decide, all right, I wanna continue to apply for other positions. I wanna be a coordinator or something like that. Within my district. You get punished for doing what they tell you to do and how they punish you. What they tell you. They tell you, oh, I'm sorry you way too overqualified for this position, but you've been telling me all these years that I should be going back to school. You been telling me all these years to get multiple certs so I can be marketable. Right. Strong arm in me to do that. I do that. I get all my CPD credits and all that. You're not gonna tell me that I can't even get a job because I am overqualified. So I'm getting punished for doing the right thing, and now I can't find a job to save my

Dr:

Yeah.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

I've seen friends go through that. Friends. It is just, it's ridiculous.

Dr:

it's, it's wild. It's wild. Um, I, I wanna say one thing about teacher ed and then I'm gonna ask you to share a pro tip with, um, the listeners. I think you're absolutely right about teacher ed in that when you are a professor in that world, showing and opening eyes is really important. And I think, and I can only speak for myself and the programs I was in, but it was also important on like, then how do you navigate that tension when you get there? Because there's gonna be tension between what you know is best for kids and what you might be being asked to do. And so what does that look like? And, you know, I've always been a little feisty, so my students would be like, what would you do? I said, well, you can't necessarily do what I would do because I personally like. Believe this and move in this way, but that may or may not be exactly how you move. Right. Like, you know, um,

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Be willing to give up something.

Dr:

oh yeah, I got myself in trouble. Right.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

See what I'm saying?

Dr:

uh, but it was worth it to me because I'm like, you can't be treated. My students like that. Um, but that's just me and my personality. But I do think it's important. Right. And actually that was part of my dissertation. Like we've taught them all these things. What happens when they go out into the school district? That's what I was curious about, like what happens when they just even go student teach and get in this environment. Right. Because I'm curious. We're telling'em all these things and you're exactly right. That is why I shifted some of the things I do and how I do it, because it gave me a different level of access. Because if I'm working directly within the system from outside the system, I can make some different changes than even preparing people to go into the system, which is wild, right? So I, I, I don't disagree with that. I don't want people leaving the system though. We need you there. But I think to me. We need to find a way to continue to build this capacity of those that are outside the system and inside the system to facilitate this change. I think your book is a great way to do that. You all need to go out and grab that Learning to Relearn. I will also link it, oh yes, I will link it in the show notes for you as well. But Kwame, I always love to end with like a pro tip. Like what is, we have talked about so many things, and again, I think we could have like three more episodes from the little nuggets that we talked about. Um, but what's one thing you want everyone to kinda take away that they could go and try and do? Um.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

Hmm. One, one pro tip. I would say, um, number one, yes, there's so many things we need to do as teachers, but I'll just say it's so important to just be present for your students. Get to know your students, build general relations with them. If you just do that one thing, that's gonna go a long way for you. just gonna go a long way. And be honest, when you see those same students, 10, 15, 20 years from now, they're not gonna remember what you taught them. I was a math teacher for 10 years and most of the students who are now grown with their own kids, they don't remember me. For the math, yes, they

Dr:

Mm-hmm.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

math teacher, but

Dr:

Right?

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

them the most,

Dr:

Yes.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

was the jokes. It was the fun times. It was the way that they felt how I treated them when they were in my classroom. That's what they remember the most. That's the legacy that I carry, and I am folks who listen to this to try to aspire to carry on that similar legacy of just building good relations with students because that's what's gonna get the results that you're looking for.

Dr:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I always say, you bring the joy, so bring the joy. Bring the connection.

Kwame Sarfo-Mensah:

you go.

Dr:

Yes. I love it. Well, thank you all for joining us for another episode of The Equity Hour. Please look in the show notes for a link to Kwame's book and stay tuned and remember to use your voice today.

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